The Death of Suck and Feed
Posted Fri Jun 8 20:33:23 2001 by sbaldwin |
By Steve Baldwin (updated 6/9/2001)
It's all over the Web now - Suck and Feed are dead. These two content pioneers - and their parent company, Automatic Media,
fell victim today to the same virtual blight that's been killing strong
content trees for years - "an inability to secure additional
financing."
Suck at its worst was pretentious, irrelevant, and despite the droll
drawings of Terry Colon, often insufferable. At its best it was
stinging, witty, funny, and the content property that everybody wanted
to imitate - from Time-Warner's Netly News on down to sites like this
one. Its loss indicates a definite closing of a chapter in the Web's
history. It will be missed and mourned by many - love or hate it, Suck
(and to a lesser, extent, Feed) was a genuine pioneer.
We (Netslaves) played a small role in this disaster - we were a partner in Plastic's
launch. Not really a "touted" partner - but Bill and myself spent
hundreds of hours fiddling with SlashBox - or whatever their automated
publishing bot is called - restocking Plastic's Work Channel with fresh
content, checking links, etc. The idea - and perhaps it makes no sense
- was to ally ourselves with the same ironic crowd that Suck had
cultivated with such success in the 1995-2000 period. To rub elbows
with a few smart, alienated people, and show them our world - the dark
side of IT.
It failed badly. Netslaves.com didn't get any real traffic, Our
content mix didn't jibe too well with Plastic's post-graduate brand of
uber-ironism. Plastic didn't sell any ads beyond a few house banners -
they tried but, well, as we were told "you boys know how bad the market
is". I suppose we should consider ourselves lucky here - all we lost
was time - a lot of hours. I also had to spend about $1,000 extra on
ISP bills maintaining Plastic and performing other jobs required to
glue things together. So figure a wash that was below $5,000 - maybe a
quarter of my yearly income - in terms of bucks spent and unbilled
time. Was it Pure Netslavery? Of course. Did we ever make a dime? Not
on your life. So it was a wash - a small one but a wash nonetheless.
This failure didn't kill us, but it didn't help us either - and in this
perilous world, that's often enough to prove fatal in the long run for
small indie content sites such as this one.
What's the lesson here? Well, there are lots of candidates. Maybe
Suck would still be around if it stuck to its roots (which were very
spartan - a couple of guys who camped out in Hotwired's offices at
night). Maybe Plastic would have taken off like a rocket if it had been
launched a year earlier or a year later. Maybe even low-key, downscale
offices downtown are out of reach for Web projects (maybe future ones
will be run from a free PC in your local library). Maybe a site like
this one belongs in its own virtual universe: unlinked and unloved. I'm
frankly sick of lessons - this business sucks - whether or not Joey
really does need a vacation. Maybe we should all take some time off. I
give both Joey and Stephen high marks for putting something to rest
rather than letting it become awful - a fate that has met many Web
zines.
If there's a lesson for Netslaves, I guess it's that we'll stay in
the minors - it seems a lot safer than playing with the big boys. It's
not great - because we're living on rice - not sushi - but it wouldn't
be the first time people have done with less and survived in the woods
instead of being cut down in town. And as we've intimated here, we
could just as easily go away too - run out of steam - vanish - because
we're pretty close to the edge around here, and this is unlikely to
change. I'd like to think that we'll hang on, just because it's more
annoying not to publish Netslaves than it is to publish it. But time
(as well as money) changes everything, and it certainly did for Suck,
whose outsized command of the Web's mindshare couldn't be monterized
into enough cash to keep them playing in a real stadium (at last
report, they seem headed for the sandlot too, so perhaps we haven't
heard the last of 'em).
Can you live without Suck? Of course. And you can live without this
site too - Web Content is the most disposable invention since Big Mac
packaging was perfected by Ray Croc. I think we'll stick around a bit
longer, because of our Spartan habits and our somewhat unhealthy
fascination with this subject. So we're "going deep" this summer - not
going away, but digging in close to the earth, which is where we
started, and clearly where we still belong.
Will the world care much about the death of the Web's oldest,
thorniest column? Probably not - especially now that everyone is
running around looking for a job, Web-based irony is commonplace, and
so are sites devoted to deflating the media. But my question to you is:
what will you read instead? And with the "Web's Oldest Cybercolumn"
dead, to whom does this award now pass?
|
Name: Freyja (Plastic)
Email: freyja@onebox.com
Date: Thu Jun 14 16:08:31 2001
Comment:
I'm the longest employed FEED person who was not a founder, and I have
been around for the life of Automatic Media. If anyone should be pissed
off, it's me -- everything I have worked to build in the last 2.5
years, whatever you may think of what that was, has come to nothing,
and I am unemployed in the worst job market in years, along with many
many people who I care about immensely.
It's childish to make the statements that have been made here about
Joey and others who worked for Automatic Media. I know that our
contracts with other publications did not result in financial rewards.
When you signed the contract with us, you entered into a business
venture, not an employment agreement, and there were simply no profits
to share. We were not in a position to pay out. The deal was structured
so that the minute we had money to pay out, it would go to you in the
form of monthly checks. I know because I built the accounting system,
along with my co-workers -- it took a lot of time and energy. It never
would have been built if we had no intention of making good on our
deals. No one thought that the economy was in for the dark times we are
now all experiencing. AM's is a business plan that made some sense,
given what we knew about business in 1999-2000. Naive, sure. Overly
optimistic, sure. Willfully misleading, definitely not. Dishonest, no
way.
Plastic achieved significant growth and spawned a community that is
now keeping itself alive in the few months since we launched it on
January 15. It gets well over 100,000 page views a day, which is
obviously not making any cash, but by 2000 standards, that was pretty
freakin' good. Every week is a new record in traffic for us. Ad sales
people here were simply unable to sell a single ad, not for the lack of
trying. As for Feed and Suck, if they were so irrelevant, why did our
readership keep growing? I've read every piece of subscriber feedback
since 1999, and while not as perhaps popular and awe-inspiringly
catholic in taste as say, Christina Aguilera or Netslaves, many people
will miss reading feed and suck, myself included.
You took a risk, same as every single one of us over here. It
didn't pan out, and that's too bad -- it could have been awesome and
fun, and financially rewarding. But don't start smearing people who
tried something that didn't work out. You don't know what you're
talking about. I wish you the best luck possible in this market with
your new venture with dotcomscoop. I hope for Ben Silverman's sake that
it's more profitable than your venture with Automatic Media. It would
become you to wish well to those of us whose publications have not been
so lucky.
|
Name:
Email:
Date: Wed Jun 13 11:37:03 2001
Comment: Dear Steve Martin,
I just wanted to take this opportunity to say that your dance scene
with Lily Tomlin at the end of "all of me" is one of the sweetest
scenes ever
in a movie. And I just sold your book Cruel Shoes at a garage sale.
|
Name:
Email:
Date: Tue Jun 12 09:41:48 2001
Comment: take the trolls to task
|
Name: SteveMartin
Email:
Date: Mon Jun 11 11:11:30 2001
Comment: Y'know, my whole style of writing changed when i started using verbs. . .
|
Name: Funtime Ed
Email: heterogenius@homo.com
Date: Mon Jun 11 05:23:51 2001
Comment:
Sorry for the laziness, Steve... If I had read the post about you not
getting paid by Suck, I would have known the one about not liking Anuff
was genuine.
So, is Anuff Anuff, or is Haight Anuff? I know, Anuff, Already. (His new pasta joint.)
|
Name: ellensmith
Email: violethorvath@hotmail.com
Date: Sun Jun 10 21:33:07 2001
Comment: Well I'm glad you're hopeful about a change.
You must be referring to the short woman that's not a sheep (or,
dare I assume, a goat). And if you haven't had any luck kissing someone
after football, maybe you should ask Funtime Ed.
Anyway, I guess I'm confused. How did Mr. Anuff
act badly in all this?
<---received a score of 2 with "Genius" beside it
over at Plastic so I'm feeling a little giddy.
|
Name: The Other Cheek
Email:
Date: Sun Jun 10 21:28:13 2001
Comment:
>I don't blame Syd for much.
The Magic 8-Ball is never wrong, Steve. Syd (and the rest of the
rank-and-file at APB) was moot: The site was tagged, bagged and on its
way to the morgue. |
Name: steve gilliard
Email: sgilliard@netslaves.com
Date: Sun Jun 10 19:29:11 2001
Comment: Ellen,
I never claimed to be smart about football. Playing football is an
act of willful stupidity. Ask anyone Sunday morning after touch
football. And I usually drink beer after football, not kiss anyone.
Hopefully that will change.
Cheek,
I was trained in newspapers at NYU and wrote for a few trades and
weeklies, no dailies. Then I worked in politics, as a researcher and
then online. But a couple of years was enough to understand the
mentality.
And I don't blame Syd for much. He was just wrong and didn't listen
to people who knew. Levins and Sauter, otoh.....yeah, you have a point.
And Ed, those are my words. Not a faked sig. Of course, this could
be faked as well.:-). No seriously, I feel Anuff acted badly in all
this, others proabably do as well. |
Name: ellensmith
Email: violethorvath
Date: Sun Jun 10 15:38:50 2001
Comment: I agree with Funtime Ed. It looks like there's
a lot of fake stuff going on to me. By the way,
are you the Funtime Ed that used to send me email?
|
Name: The Other Cheek
Email:
Date: Sun Jun 10 15:22:00 2001
Comment:
>You worked with newspaper people, some of whom trained me. Forgive and forget is not in that lexicon.:-)
Steve G: First, you've mentioned your newspaper background in
several replies to my posts, but I was always too busy arguing with you
to ask what paper(s) you've worked for and in what capacity?
Also, it's true that forgive and forget is a concept alien to
newspaper folks (else, Jim Romanesko's site would lose its entire
raison d'etre). If that's true, sources tell me that there will be a
special place in Hell for APB's editor, Hoag Levins. (Or, should that
be Levins, the sexist Hoag???). But the Magic 8-Ball tells me that Syd
Schanberg is going to Heaven (sorry if this ruins your day). |
Name: Bill Volk
Email: bvolk@youworkit.com
Date: Sun Jun 10 15:18:37 2001
Comment:
It took me 18 months to build a web based service for
printers/newspapers and I was happy just to get 4 figures of revenue
last month. I'll be estatic with 5 figures next.
Why would you screw up something (suck.com) that was making money? That doesn't make sense.
Internet companies have to be small and nimble to survive all of this.
|
Name:
Email:
Date: Sun Jun 10 14:35:04 2001
Comment: I get all my papers and smile at the sky
"cause I know that they hypnotized never lie.
|
Name: Funtime Ed
Email: heterogenius@homo.com
Date: Sun Jun 10 14:25:22 2001
Comment:
Given all of the faked sig crap going on here, will someone please
clarify whether or not the following statement came from the real Steve
Gilliard or a fake one:
"I do not consider Joey Anuff or his associates honorable people.
As the stories come out, it will be clear why I feel this way."
Thanks!
funtime ed
|
Name: ellensmith
Email: violethorvath@hotmail.com
Date: Sun Jun 10 13:03:45 2001
Comment: Mr. Gilliard,
So let me see if I understand this. Women aren't a part of the team
and you spend a lot of time hitting people, punching them and kicking
them. And then after the game you kiss the women. Which one would you
say you spend more of your time doing? Just something to think about. I
mean,
you're the smart one. I believe I'm just the one
someone here referred to as a malformed dwarf.
And it's not raining here, but it certainly sounds
like Houston is having a devil of a time. Would anyone like to
discuss their favorite Suck of all time? I thought that might be a good
topic and I'd certainly do my best to try and keep up :) |
Name: stevegilliard
Email: sgilliard@netslaves.com
Date: Sun Jun 10 12:28:07 2001
Comment: Ellen,
I coach now, but basically I played offensive line, which is where
you hit people, kick them, punch them and not get caught. There is no
running, no catching, just hitting and more hitting. No glory there,
just the knowlegde of hard work done well.
And no women play on our team. So kisses are reserved for after the game.:-)
Cheek,
Due dilligence with private companies is very difficult. If we could have seen their books, we would have run hard and fast.
I don't dislike Syd. I dislike how he treated us as village idiots. We know our shit.
You worked with newspaper people, some of whom trained me. Forgive and forget is not in that lexicon.:-)
|
Name: ellensmith
Email: violethorvath@hotmail.com
Date: Sun Jun 10 11:29:05 2001
Comment:
Dear The Other Cheek: The reason Plastic isn't working is because it's
too hard to understand. Here's and example. Supposedly there are 167
comments right now on the Suck muck but I can only find 165. I've
looked and looked for 166 and 167. How are you supposed to find those.
Also, the name Plastic isn't
very good. Also, the name Automated Media sounds like a laundromat. Also, I said, "There but for
the Grace of God go I", but it's not nearly as much fun as saying these
1. The epitome of femininity.
2. She stood on the balcony
inexplicably mimicing him hiccupping,
and amicably welcoming him home.
Dear Steve Gilliard: I see that you're also a football player. What team do you play for?
I remember a game where I played in the rain on a Sunday afternoon.
I went out for this long pass and was told, "just keep running, don't
look back until you get in the end zone. Got it?" So I did it, and I
crossed the goal line and looked back and the ball was right there but
it hit me in the head. And then everyone started laughing because I was
just standing there and I had been trying to impress the guy who threw
me the ball and he just stood there way back where he was and I was
just standing there and it was raining and it was like this moment
suspended in time because all of a sudden I noticed he was walking
towards me, zigging around the laughing people and I thought "Oh god
now he's going to start yelling at me" and
he got closer and closer and then there he was standing in front
of me and I was soaked at this point, but I had gotten the ball so I
handed it to him and he took it and threw it on the ground and then he
put his arms around me and dipped me and gave me this great, really
long kiss and it just goes to show how one minute you can feel like
everything is going wrong
and then someone does something like that and god it feels good.
Dear Mr. Blank: As far as your
comment to Marilyn goes that genius is usually revealed thru
creativity, I would also like to point out that Einstein said that
"Imagination is more important than knowledge in case you hadn't heard
that.
Mr. Anuff: Dave Barry isn't that funny, so don't worry about it.
|
Name: Tom
Email:
Date: Sun Jun 10 11:08:12 2001
Comment:
When is E-Bitch going to write another article? It's been awhile... I
hope she didn't starve to death! Or worse move... Back in with her
parents! |
Name: The Other Cheek
Email:
Date: Sun Jun 10 10:38:01 2001
Comment:
>90 percent of what anyone does has nothing to do with race ...
>this IS Netslaves, and not Racism Review ...
There you go, Steve G. Your readers will be very happy if y'all
stick to New Economy, New Media, Internet, tech and related subjects.
That's what they come here for (you know, brand identity). :)
>[W]e had been told ... Plastic would sell ads for us [and]
share their ad sales on their site ... They said we would make money,
and it turned out they were incapable of making any. ... [W]e realized
... Plastic was a last desperate gasp to save Suck and Feed and ...
they had no interest in living up to their end of the bargain ...
Steve G, sounds like someone didn't do his due diligence. A common New Economy failing, to be sure.
Steve B asked what the lesson is in all this. From my perspective,
the lesson is that before you lob grenades at the flotsam and jetsam
(i.e., shell-shocked, discarded dot-com employees who haven't even
figured out yet what went wrong and how they're supposed to live on
unemployment insurance) for decisions they make with which you
disagree, step back and take a deep breath and say (out loud three
times), "There but for the grace of God go I."
Then, for heaven's sake, be merciful toward them.
Go after the bad bosses, but not their victims -- even when you
feel there was contrubutory negligence (or The Stockholm Syndrome,
which may well have been the case at APB) involved.
>Also ... the thoroughly dishonorable way Anuff and Automatic dealt with us ... will not be forgotten.
Well, Steve G, considering how long you've kept your grudge against
Sydney Schanberg stoked I have no doubt about the veracity of this last
statement (even considering how prone to exaggeration you are
sometimes). :)
|
Name: stevegilliard
Email: sgilliard@netslaves.com
Date: Sun Jun 10 09:42:01 2001
Comment: >Have I ever mentioned that I am a black man in a racist society?
Yes, Steve, every chance you get. Have I mentioned that I am a
woman in a sexist industry? No, because I refuse to wallow in
victimology and to let the bastards get the better of me. Eventually I
will prevail -- maybe not today or tomorrow, but eventually. I never
will prevail if I spend my days bitching about the way things are
instead of trying to change them.
Uh, I didn't write this. Because noticing America is racist is like
noticing New York is rainy. I may not like playing football in the
rain, I may bitch about it, but I get on with my day. Of course it's
racist, and if you ask me about race, I'll point it out. But this IS
Netslaves, and not Racism Review, so I think I get on with my day.:-)
You know, 90 percent of what anyone does has nothing to do with race. It's that pesky 10 percent which frustrates.
As far as Plastic goes, we were lied to. Not just on one occasion.
And, unlike APBNews, where people were asked to work for free, our
labor was simply stolen, and when we found out that the money we
expected was not there, we were fucked.
At that point, we stopped contributing to the site. The only reason
our name remained on plastic was due to us not exercising our 90 day
out in our contract. Plastic couldn't sell one ad. We made more money
in 10 weeks with that banner you see on our page than Plastic ever paid
us.
What we had been told was that Plastic would sell ads for us as
well as share their ad sales on their site with us. Nothing up front.
We weren't part of any noble anything. They said we would make
money, and it turned out they were incapable of making any. What we
realized was that Plastic was a last desperate gasp to save Suck and
Feed and when we realized that they had no interest in living up to
their end of the bargain, we walked away.
We were not the only people who fell for their promises or were hurt by their inability to execute.
But make no mistake, we didn't willingly work for free or
contribute to their site. Nor did any of their partners. This, btw, has
been known within the industry since March. No one was surprised that
they went under.
Also, according to our stats, dotcomscoop's single NetSlaves link
drove as much, if not more traffic to us than Plastic ever did. FC has
been a steady referrer as well.
Plastic was a net plus in terms of us upgrading the site and improving the content, but in every other way, it was a negative.
Also, I think the thoroughly dishonorable way Anuff and Automatic
dealt with us, refusing to be straight on any number of issues, will
not be forgotten. |
Name:
Email:
Date: Sun Jun 10 09:41:03 2001
Comment:
Marilyn, your syndicated answers to such questions as: ?why is the
sky blue,? suggest a person who is either well read or has a few
research assistants. Genius is usually revealed through original
creativity.
|
Name: Marilyn Vos Savant
Email:
Date: Sun Jun 10 08:08:56 2001
Comment:
>Please correct me if I misspeak, Marilyn. Your column certainly
does NOT project a person with the highest IQ on the planet.
Blank: Since you insist, here is your correction. I must write my
column to your level of understanding, not mine. Naturally, I come off
as being less intelligent than I am in actuality -- because you are
less intelligent than I am. Don't feel badly, about it, though. It's
not your fault. It's just an accident of nature. |
Name: ellensmith
Email: violethorvath@hotmail.com
Date: Sun Jun 10 01:08:08 2001
Comment: <----looks around
what was that anuff thing? Was I not supposed to buy the book?I
USED SOME OF MY GARAGE SALE MONEY!!! How is that being like a vulture?
I came out of retirement for this abuse? |
Name: joey anuff
Email: anuff@suck.com
Date: Sun Jun 10 00:58:05 2001
Comment: Anuff of this!
I realize that my writing has become like a lame anti-establishment
left wing formula. I'm kind of like a cross between Dave Barry and Alan
Colmes, except Mr. Colmes may score more than I do. I'm like Dave
because I'm not really that funny but I'm consistent, and I'm like Alan
because I don't really stand for anything beyond lip service.
I managed to squeeze a book deal or two out of this measly thing
and I got to get a t-shirt with my URL on it. I lived the dot-com
dream. Someone funded the project I was working on while goofing off at
Wired several years back. I admit it. I coasted. I was so out of touch
that when I saw Slashdot.org I was like "Fuck! I wish I thought of
that! I would have been able to build something worthwhile, instead of
launching Plastic, which proved once and for all my traffic had
dwindled to Jamie Levy.
Fuck it! Add a self-reflecting morale aggrandizing sarcastic
wink-wink nudge-nudge statement here. Print and take to local
Williamsburg caf? after pulling cash at the ATM from the account your
parents in the Midwest keep full with government farm subsidies. Go
back to Pratt and take a class in advanced interpretive cray-pas art
instead of crying about being out of work. You guys are like vultures
circling around the carcass of my entertainment empire as though it was
carrion! I?m like Phineas Freak when he was exposed as that religious
cult leader.
A sardine , Tupperware, and a bb gun
|
Name: ellensmith
Email: violethorvath@hotmail.com
Date: Sat Jun 9 23:11:10 2001
Comment: Who cares how many parents she has? And frankly,
I think book sales are going to go up (for Suck) since I just bought one. Didn't they ever have a hard back?
|
Name:
Email:
Date: Sat Jun 9 22:50:53 2001
Comment:
Please correct me if I misspeak, Marilyn. Your column certainly
does NOT project a person with the highest IQ on the planet. How many
patents do you have? |
Name: ellensmith
Email: violethorvath@hotmail.com
Date: Sat Jun 9 22:38:30 2001
Comment: I'm not sure if I can hang around until I get the
shut up award. I had a whole thing written up about why people know
what they do, when you know what you've done and how you know when you
know what you've done but I decided not to post it because I'm going to
contact Emily and see if her husband will be my intermediary. I'm
feeling kinda squeaky since my karma is now 2. |
Name: Marilyn Vos Savant
Email:
Date: Sat Jun 9 21:18:13 2001
Comment:
>I thought you would have corrected someone's
misspelling of euphamism which is euphemism
Ellen: Too many typos, too little time. I notice, though, that "schizophrenic" is spelled correctly ...
|
Name:
Email:
Date: Sat Jun 9 20:45:34 2001
Comment:
Ellen my dear, can you spell "schizophrenic?"
|
Name: EllenSmith
Email: violethorvath@hotmail.com
Date: Sat Jun 9 20:36:11 2001
Comment: Thanks for the correct spelling Marilyn.
I thought you would have corrected someone's
misspelling of euphamism which is euphemism
but I'm sure you've been busy.
Anyway, how much can it cost to write a few articles occasionally? I mean like, how much
could Tiny Little Penis really cost? Are they still selling the Tshirts?
|
Name: Captain Callous
Email: blowmejoey@ivehadanuff.com
Date: Sat Jun 9 17:59:29 2001
Comment: By the way, reading over my own post reminded me of something.
Every "Important Web Player" in the circle-jerk, incestuous
dotcom industry was thus kissing their asses and giving them free PR
from the moment they launched.
Modern Humorist fits this description equally well. They're next to die.
|
Name: Marilyn Vos Savant
Email:
Date: Sat Jun 9 17:16:40 2001
Comment:
>let's all take some Demoral and calm down
It's Demerol, and I'm as calm as someone with the highest IQ on the planet can be. But thank you for your concern.
|
Name:
Email:
Date: Sat Jun 9 16:12:41 2001
Comment: wow - this place is like a civil war. let's all take some Demoral and calm down, eh?
|
Name:
Email:
Date: Sat Jun 9 15:50:43 2001
Comment:
>Marilyn Dos Savant
BTW, ex-IT person, it's Marilyn Vos Savant. You probably knew that and just mis-typed the name ...
|
Name: EllenSmith
Email: violethorvath
Date: Sat Jun 9 15:17:44 2001
Comment:
|
Name: ex-IT person
Email:
Date: Sat Jun 9 15:01:14 2001
Comment: The ever strident (and arguably female) "ellensmith" posted some blather:
{snip}
You are a bleating fool, a curdled staggering mutant dwarf. smeared richly with the effluvia
and offal accompanying your alleged
birth into this world. An insensate, blinking calf, meaningful to
nobody, abandoned by the puke-drooling, giggling beasts who sired you
and then killed themselves in recognition of what they had done.
I will never get over the embarrassment of belonging to the same
species as you. You are a monster, an ogre, a malformity. I vomit
at the very thought of you. You have all the appeal of a paper
cut. Lepers avoid you. You are vile, worthless, less than nothing. You
are a
weed, a fungus, the dreg of this earth. And did I mention you smell?
If you aren't an idiot, you made a world-class effort at simulating
one. By comparison to you, a watermelon has the IQ and social graces of
Marilyn Dos Savant. Try to edit your writing of unnecessary material
before attempting
to impress us with your insight. The evidence that you are a
nincompoop will still be available to readers, but they will be able to
access it more rapidly. Just post blank messages this will save
both the time of those here, your intellectual betters, and valuable
electrons on the servers.
Back to your garage sale. You know, I've never heard that particular euphamism for "street whore" before.
This wasn't a troll just you couldn't miss it, sweetie.
|
Name: The Other Cheek
Email:
Date: Sat Jun 9 14:21:34 2001
Comment:
>Netslaves [was] a partner in Plastic's launch ... Bill and
myself (sic) spent hundreds of hours fiddling with ... their automated
publishing bot ... restocking Plastic's Work Channel with fresh
content, checking links, etc. ... Netslaves.com didn't get any real
traffic ... Plastic didn't sell any ads beyond a few house banners ...
all we lost was ... a lot of hours [and] ... about 1,000 extra on ISP
bills maintaining Plastic and performing other jobs required to glue
things together. So figure a wash that was below 5,000 ... in terms of
bucks spent and unbilled time. Was it Pure Netslavery? Of course. Did
we ever make a dime? Not on your life. So it was a wash ...
One thing I am confused about: According to my understanding of the
term, "wash," in return for the estimated 5000.00 you spent in unbilled
time and unreimbursed out-of-pocket expenses, you, Bill and/or
Netslaves should have netted 5000.00 in income. If your income from
this venture was less than that -- or nothing at all -- then it's a loss, correct?
Another thing I am confused about: This bomb blew up almost exactly
a year to the day that Netslaves rained all manned of disapprobation on
the shell-shocked heads of APB staffers who volunteered their labor
(with no out-of-pocket costs, except subway fare) to keep the Web site
up and running to give the owners of the company more time to conclude
(ultimately unsuccessful) negotiations to sell the site. Based on the
(less-than-candid, in hindsight) information the company's owners gave
APB employees about their chances of success, the staff thought
donating 80 hours of labor (not hundreds) was the best way of saving
their livelihoods.
So how come when you guys devote hundreds of unbilled hours and a
significant sum in unreimbursed expenses (which eroded your anemic
incomes even more), you were supporting a noble experiment in indie
content sites -- but APB staffers were naive and stupid? What's the
diff?
>Have I ever mentioned that I am a black man in a racist society?
Yes, Steve, every chance you get. Have I mentioned that I am a
woman in a sexist industry? No, because I refuse to wallow in
victimology and to let the bastards get the better of me. Eventually I
will prevail -- maybe not today or tomorrow, but eventually. I never
will prevail if I spend my days bitching about the way things are
instead of trying to change them.
|
Name:
Email:
Date: Sat Jun 9 14:20:29 2001
Comment: My sentiments exactly, Captain.
|
Name: Captain Callous
Email: blowmejoey@Ivehadanuff.com
Date: Sat Jun 9 13:50:16 2001
Comment: "But in the end, they were, as you say, directly responsible for the likes of us, FC, and all the other "edgy" sites out there."
Bullshit! Suck was never anything more than the "first mover" into
an inevitable web-content category: The Obnoxious Ranter. If they
hadn't started it, someone else would have, within WEEKS. Hell, someone
probably DID start it before them, but they ended up getting lost in
the dust because Suck was run from directly inside Cool People Central
world headquarters at Hotwired. Every "Important Web Player" in the
circle-jerk, incestuous dotcom industry was thus kissing their asses
and giving them free PR from the moment they launched. No other writers
could ever have possibly competed with that.
Happily, this same blind they're-one-of-us worship is what directly
lead to Suck's demise. Now that everyone gets to use the web, and
participate in it, the LAST thing anyone wants to read is the
pseudoanonymous, prefab snarkiness of a bunch of dotcom insiders who
are, in 2001, arrogant whiny losers by definition.
Fuck you, Suck. Go fellate the Pets.com puppet, Joey. Your free ride is over.
|
Name: Captain Callous
Email: blowmejoey@Ivehadanuff.com
Date: Sat Jun 9 13:49:23 2001
Comment: But in the end, they were, as you say, directly responsible for the likes of us, FC, and all the other "edgy" sites out there.
Bullshit! Suck was never anything more than the "first mover" into
an inevitable web-content category: The Obnoxious Ranter. If they
hadn't started it, someone else would have, within WEEKS. Hell, someone
probably DID start it before them, but they ended up getting lost in
the dust because Suck was run from directly inside Cool People Central
world headquarters at Hotwired. Every "Important Web Player" in the
circle-jerk, incestuous dotcom industry was thus kissing their asses
and giving them free PR from the moment they launched. No other writers
could ever have possibly competed with that.
Happily, this same blind they're-one-of-us worship is what directly
lead to Suck's demise. Now that everyone gets to use the web, and
participate in it, the LAST thing anyone wants to read is the
pseudoanonymous, prefab snarkiness of a bunch of dotcom insiders who
are, in 2001, arrogant whiny losers by definition.
Fuck you, Suck. Go fellate the Pets.com puppet, Joey. Your free ride is over.
|
Name: George W. Bush
Email: gwbush@netslaves.com
Date: Sat Jun 9 13:03:50 2001
Comment:
Have I mentioned that I am a black man in a racist society?
|
Name: Steve Baldwin
Email: Steve_Baldwin@hotmail.com
Date: Sat Jun 9 12:47:17 2001
Comment:
It actually is true that we're going to be relaunching Netslaves soon -
more hardware, bandwidth etc. The good news is that the costs are about
the same. And yes - a week or so is a reasonable estimate, provided the
gremlins stay away. Whether this improves the content here is a
question that will remain unanswerable this week.
I do hope that any features we add won't make the content much more confusing than it already is.
(also not a troll)
|
Name: ellensmith
Email: violethorvath@hotmail.com
Date: Sat Jun 9 12:47:05 2001
Comment: (someone wrote)I could go on, but I think I'm either going to cry or puke....
Do it now. But drop by the garage sale first and haggle with me
over a quarter item and ask if you can have it for a dime and once
you've established that you're a jerk then go out and get
a job giving computer lectures for 700 a pop, or become a member
of the digerati who want it for Freking free so take the FAN FOR 5 you
pathetic slob!!!!!WHO DO SOME OF THESE PEOPLE REMIND YOU OF???? LET"S
SEE>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!
|
Name: ELLENSMITH
Email: violethorvath@hotmail.com
Date: Sat Jun 9 12:43:03 2001
Comment: Dear Dad,
Keep posting? Do I work for you? What am I your slave? Do you find
that a little ironic steve? I mean what are the rules on posting? How
often can we post? You must have rules? Where are they? Oh I can see it
now. And the last thing I need is some nutcase at a garage sale going
on about how he used to "do code" but he's gone back to the lawn care
business? God, where do you get this stuff? DO YOU THINK I"M SOME KIND
OF AN IDIOT OVER HERE?????DO THE LAWN AND STFU AND WHEN I SAID I DON"T
TALK TO COMPUTER TYPES ANYMORE I SAID IT FOR A REASON!! |
Name: bill
Email: bill@netslaves.com
Date: Sat Jun 9 12:41:35 2001
Comment: >>>you've got NO RIGHT TO CRITICIZE THE WEB CONSULTANCY BUSINESS. End of story.
Mama,
I'm not a programmer. But I've been in this industry since 1992. I've got a right to an opinion.
I'm curious. What's your background?
|
Name: ex-IT person
Email:
Date: Sat Jun 9 12:39:37 2001
Comment: All of this dialogue is making me homesick for
the "technical" "staff" meetings way back when.
Same level of rolling bile.
Same level of sophmoric efforts at being funny.
Same level of "I'm bored, so you have to entertain me because I'm such a waterhead I can't do it for myself" ego.
I could go on, but I think I'm either going to cry or puke....
|
Name: steve gilliard
Email: sgilliard@netslaves.com
Date: Sat Jun 9 12:28:03 2001
Comment:
We obviously have a simple, open posting system from the days when we
didn't have much traffic. We've been working on the code for nearly two
months and it has involved no small expense and time on our part.
If someone wants to make fun of us on our own boards, we can pull the comments or ignore them.
But we're going to be upgrading the site within days, and thus, end much of this.
Keep in mind, FC was closed by hacks, had ID's stolen, crashed daily for months. No site is immune to these kinds of problems.
And unlike a web consultancy, we're not charging clients 250 an
hour for the same level of crap, nor will someone have to come in and
clean up the code.
When the new site comes up, you'll know it. Until then, keep posting.
|
Name: Mama Cretin
Email: reallydumbwoman@fuckedcompany.com
Date: Sat Jun 9 12:10:25 2001
Comment:
I've had quite enough of you idiots - published or unpublished. Pud is
better in bed than Josh Harris, Tanya Corrin, Carl Steadmen AND Steve
Gilliard stacked on the same mattress. Find a 16-year old who can do
some hard code for you guys - until that time, you've got NO RIGHT TO
CRITICIZE THE WEB CONSULTANCY BUSINESS. End of story.
|
Name: ELLENSMITH
Email: VIOLETHORVATH@HOTMAIL.COM
Date: Sat Jun 9 12:09:40 2001
Comment: Have I mentioned that I'm a black man in a racist society? That's why Suck and Feed failed.
Yeah you mentioned that several times. Sing some Barry White or STFU.
|
Name: ELLENSMITH
Email: VIOLETHORVATH@HOTMAIL.COM
Date: Sat Jun 9 12:06:45 2001
Comment: To Mr. NoName...(your comment)
HELP - SUCK IS GONE AND THEY SENT ME HERE AND I CAN'T FIND ANYTHING
IRONIC IN A POST-GRADUATE WAY. I FEEL BETRAYED - HOW MUCH DO I HAVE TO
GIVE TO NETSLAVES FOR YOU TO ALL SHUT THE FUCK UP?
Oh that's funny. How familiar that sounds. I'll tell you what you
freak. I just had some idiot swagger up to me at my garage sale with a
picture
that I had priced for a dollar and he tells me and I quote, "you
know what I"m gonna do for you? I'm gonna give you a quarter for this."
Well guess what. They sent me home from the garage sale because I
believe I looked him in the eye and explained what he could do with his
remark and
I wasn't selling it for less than 50c!!! YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT
WHITE TRASH!!!!!YEAH IT WAS A MAN THAT SORRY SOB!!!!IT WASN"T PRICED
500!!!!!!!SOME OF YOU GUYS ARE REALLY PATHETIC!!!!
I am just a little sick and tired of people offering me jack sh
for something that happens to be worth something. AND HEY EMILY GOOD
FOR YOU!!! IS ANYONE SURPRISED ABOUT TANYA???? AND HEY PADRE DO
NOT
CARE!!!!
I"VE WRITTEN ON THIS PIECE OF CRAP FOR YEARS TO FIND OUT HOW BAD IT WAS AND EVEN I COULDN"
T BELIEVE HOW BAD IT WAS. IT"S LIKE IT JUST SUCKS IT ALL OUT OF YOU
AND IT"S SICK!!!!BUT AT LEAST THE MAN AT THE FORD PLACE BOUGHT ME A
FRIGGIN CUP OF COFFEE!!!! |
Name: concerned citizen
Email:
Date: Sat Jun 9 12:01:24 2001
Comment:
Yes, PLEEZE guys, finish coding your filter that gets rid of those
awful, goat-porn wielding Fucked Company people, esp. Mama Whatsis.
She couldn't see a joke if it hit her in her big mouth. :)
|
Name: bill
Email: bill@netslaves.com
Date: Sat Jun 9 11:42:05 2001
Comment:
>>>If you can't then how can you criticize any web development
company if you can deal with something at this level. Hint. Just ask
any 16 year old kid about his newspro hacks. But I bet you can't so you
remain unpubished writers of staggering envy
Mama,
We're not unpublished writers. Check your facts. As for the rest of it, we're working on the problem.
It's a nice day. Why not go out and enjoy it? All this stuff doesn't matter anyway.
Not a troll.
|
Name: Mama Cretin
Email: reallydumbwoman@fuckedcompany.com
Date: Sat Jun 9 11:36:14 2001
Comment: Netslaves,
You have a web design problem of a relatively simply kind.
Trolls are spoofing your names on your own message boards.
Now all you do is have to solve it in a week or so.
If you can't then how can you criticize any web development company if you can deal with something at this level.
Hint. Just ask any 16 year old kid about his newspro hacks.
But I bet you can't so you remain unpubished writers of staggering envy.
|
Name:
Email:
Date: Sat Jun 9 10:45:23 2001
Comment:
HELP - SUCK IS GONE AND THEY SENT ME HERE AND I CAN'T FIND ANYTHING
IRONIC IN A POST-GRADUATE WAY. I FEEL BETRAYED - HOW MUCH DO I HAVE TO
GIVE TO NETSLAVES FOR YOU TO ALL SHUT THE FUCK UP? |
Name: steve gilliard
Email: sgilliard@netslaves.com
Date: Sat Jun 9 10:27:27 2001
Comment:
The only reason Suck and Feed failed is because I am a black man in a racist society.
Have I ever told you that New York is the cultural and financial
capital of the world? It is. You can trust me on this. That is why
Silicon Alley is superior to Silicon Valley, even if the companies in
Silicon Valley actually make money.
Have I ever mentioned that I am a black man in a racist society?
Have you ever noticed how I write these rambling critiques of
companies that rely on banner ads and beg for reader support (like my
recent rip for Salon) while netslaves also relies on banner ads and
begs for reader support? Apparently I haven't.
Did I mention that New York is the financial and cultural capital of the world?
My buddy Baldwin says that netslaves has decided to stay in the
minors. All of us here could be bigger and more successful than the
companies we constantly criticize --- we could be bigger than Microsoft
and richer than Bill Gates if we really want to, trust me on this ---
but we have made the conscious decision to hang on by our fingernails
and hope enough people will donate to us through Amazon. We know we're
all smarter and betetr managers than the people at Salon/June/ASk
Jeeves/CMGI/etc./etc/, but we choose to be small, broke, and obscure
instead of demonstrating our superior skills. We much prefer trying to
live off the advance for our next book and hope that lightning will
strike twice.
Have I mentioned that I'm a black man in a racist society? That's why Suck and Feed failed.
|
Name:
Email:
Date: Sat Jun 9 09:53:04 2001
Comment: You're all a bunch of screaming buzzards.
|
Name: magicalkitty
Email:
Date: Sat Jun 9 09:38:52 2001
Comment:
You're a cookie made of arsenic, Harvard. But we love you anyway -
you've got such a nice smooth face and you speak such nice big words
that bespeak your peerless breeding. |
Name: two-faced
Email:
Date: Sat Jun 9 09:37:07 2001
Comment:
Guys - with all due respect to your handwringing prowess, Suck doesn't
matter. Netslaves doesn't matter. Nor does Feed, Slate, Stiv, Spim -
all the rest. They're all expensive decorative candywork on a rotten
cake.
What does matter? Checking my stocks ! (well, it used to). Checking
my free hard disk space (hmm - OK, maybe not). Downloading my free
music (sorry - that's gone too).
I've got it - checking my REAL TIME DEBT. Now that I'll pay for...
|
Name: Harvard MBA
Email:
Date: Sat Jun 9 09:19:44 2001
Comment:
1) The shakeout will continue until things are restored to a more
natural order. People must quit being shocked by stories like this, and
come to the acceptance phase.
2) NetSlaves has no choice but to remain in the minors, so don't
portray it as a decision you have to make. Moreover, NetSlaves will
close down, and soon. Eventually, a 30,000/yr hobby just won't be worth
it anymore.
|
Name: schrumpater
Email:
Date: Sat Jun 9 08:43:25 2001
Comment:
You're a BUZZARD, Baldwin - just like Humberto said. What the hell are
you so high and mighty about. I just checked your Amazon Honor System
box, and netslaves has collected less than 30 in the last two weeks. So
before you start attacking absurd, preposterous content schemes
catering to post-graduate uber-ironic clientelles, take a good look in
the mirror, bunkie! |
Name: Padre50
Email:
Date: Sat Jun 9 08:35:26 2001
Comment:
The idea of all of these Harvard and Princeton-educated people waking
up on Monday without their favorite intellectual plaything being there
for their erudite amusement is too too sad.
I haven't read Suck for years - and I don't know anybody who has.
It got to be a formula, which is OK if you can trick somebody into
paying you for this same formula, day in, day out. But this didn't
happen - and I guess the rich kids who read it everyday were too
penny-pinching to throw any money their way. Not that Suck ever asked
for this - they were too proud for their own good. |
Name: samezone19
Email:
Date: Sat Jun 9 08:05:31 2001
Comment:
>Is this another case of APBNews, with folks' soldiering on despite
the ineviable? I don't know. It certainly seems that way.
I think there's a BIG difference here. If Joey and Stephen want to
work for free - i.e work "pro bono", they're making informed choices.
They're not trying to trick other people into following them, thinking
that things will get better. And if a few people want to help them with
free GIFs or ASCII, what's the harm in that?
|
Name: EllenSmith
Email: violethorvath@hotmail.com
Date: Sat Jun 9 08:03:50 2001
Comment:
Hey Steve. Don't lecture me about baseball. If I hadn't been in the way
recently someone would have caught a Chipper Jones foul ball ok? When
was the last time that happened to you? What I was trying to say was
this. Forget about the money thing because I don't want to hear about
it anymore. We've all got the money thing. We understand it, we got it.
The thing is that in order to have done something, you've got to do
something. Because they did something, they've done something. I posted
over on Plastic that I would donate 141.85 from my recent garage sale
and I agree with the guy who said they should have asked for money.
God, after doing this garage sale I wouldn't have haggled with them at
all. I think I can tell when something is really good and they were
really good
and it's going to be painful now to see people talking about what
they did when we know what they did. I know what I did and you know
what you did. Or I used to know what I did and sometimes I still
do(know what I did). But is that really the important thing? Does
knowing what you did really matter? Does it matter if you know what you
did and I know what I did but neither of us really knows what the other
one did? There are a lot of people who know what they did but no one
here truly knows what they did. The whole thing is ebb and flow ebb and
flow. It's like sometimes you want to walk on the beach, sometimes you
want to get in the water, sometimes you want to walk out on the pier.
Sometimes you want to be in a boat. Sometimes you just want to pick up
seashells. But wearing shoes on the sand is wrong especially if they're
black like Richard Nixon's were and I'm not sure why everyone doesn't
know that yet. |
Name: Emily Dresner-Thornber
Email: zenith@orleans.pave-france.org
Date: Sat Jun 9 03:49:47 2001
Comment:
Am I still relevant? Does my bitching count? I'll take you all on.
No-nothings who can't accomplish the simplest of tasks. Why come to me
if you can't accept my demands? Let's face it. We're disintegrating in
front of everyone. I should be paid back wages for my unique
contributions. Any further quarrels, talk to my husband. I no longer
speak without an intermediary for I am quite busy writing a book that
will MAKE MONEY. |
Name: steve gilliard
Email: sgilliard@netslaves.com
Date: Sat Jun 9 03:36:14 2001
Comment: Bill. Bill. Bill. The sodium from the canned chili is affecting your brain.
FYI I've already fucked Tanya and she wasn't that good. If I had Harris's money, I'd certainly do better than that.
And once again, how can we publish long articles criticizing the
web consulting business if we can't even redesign our own site.
Maybe this stuff isn't as easy as we're saying.
Maybe we SHOULD hire Razorfish. At least you're inane ramblings would take so long to load people could tune them out.
|
Name: bill
Email: bill@netslaves.com
Date: Sat Jun 9 03:33:15 2001
Comment:
Steve. You STFU. Enought with the military analogies already. They get
tired after awhile. And we all KNOW you're obsessed with Tanya Corrin.
Why don't you just ask her out for Christ's sake instead of slagging on
Josh Harris every chance you get while masturbating over old Pseudo
videos. I'd do her too Steve (hell, right now I'm so desperate I'd do
anybody) but not to the point of obsession. |
Name: Emily Dresner-Thornber
Email: zenith@orleans.pave-france.org
Date: Sat Jun 9 03:31:59 2001
Comment:
If you fucking wankers would make up your minds, I could have knocked
this thing out months ago. I have all the answers. I asked for new
hosting, you provide it, gee I ran out of complaints, let me blame
someone else this time. |
Name: steve gilliard
Email: sgilliard@netslaves.com
Date: Sat Jun 9 03:30:44 2001
Comment: Bill. Why don't you just STFU. I know people who never had a chance to design a "content play."
"Content Play" for them was going straight to the Marines from high-school.
It's not that hard to code in PHP. Don't you think that before we
rake a whole industry over the coals as being unnecessary we should
show that we can do it ourselves? |
Name: bill
Email: bill@netslaves.com
Date: Sat Jun 9 03:28:51 2001
Comment: Gee Steve. A bit bitter, aren't we. Maybe we should hire Razorfish.
|
Name: steve gilliard
Email: sgilliard@netslaves.com
Date: Sat Jun 9 03:27:42 2001
Comment:
Exactly. Steve. Bill. Comeon guys. We've been saying that you don't
need a staff or a professional web designer to run a play yet
WE CAN'T EVEN ACCOMPLISH A SIMPLE REDESIGN ON OUR OWN SITE
Let's get our own shit in order before we play know it alls.
|
Name: bill
Email: bill@netslaves.com
Date: Sat Jun 9 02:42:04 2001
Comment:
Dude, checking links isn't "fiddling with Slash" code. You guys have
been saying for months yer gonna get some decent cgi (arguable if slash
is. Featureful, yeah I guess but still piss weak) but I can still post
as Bill Lass-ard. Tying this hunk of shit to sql server isn't that
hard. Or even just using a fargin' cookie would help. Hell I'll even
settle for oldest comment first. |
Name: SecretAgent
Email:
Date: Sat Jun 9 01:55:32 2001
Comment: Perhaps they should have could have used the amazon honor system. WHich by the way has anyone actually donated?
|
Name: steve gilliard
Email: sgilliard@netslaves.com
Date: Sat Jun 9 01:50:57 2001
Comment: Blank.
People have done both, think WWII.
Ellen,
Huh? Joey never had a fastball like Randy Johnson.
Bill,
I do not consider Joey Anuff or his associates honorable people. As the stories come out, it will be clear why I feel this way.
I will say this: some people must learn that their acts will not
only be judged by themselves, but others. And today's expediency is
tomorrow's problem.
With that said, Suck and Feed stopped growing in 1996. Joey and Steve Johnson never got past the day their sites made money.
Who did they speak to? Who did they represent? Was it you? Me? I
don't think so. They were part of Salon's audience and they ran into
the same problem.
It isn't a left perspective, but a SF perspective. Not that there's a big difference.
|
Name:
Email:
Date: Sat Jun 9 01:38:18 2001
Comment: Hey, Baldwin:
Whould you rather survive eating rice or starve on sushi?
|
Name:
Email:
Date: Sat Jun 9 01:36:41 2001
Comment:
Suck should have died in 1996, but it was this big vanity project and
everybody protected it. First Wired, then Lycos, then Automatic Media.
You don't need a big corporate deal when you're only doing 800 words a
day plus a graphic.
Suck was the prototyical dot-com, the first to put hype before
substance. It was the first to take the raw arrogance of cyberculture
and make it acceptable to corporate America.
Plastic.com tried to rip off both Weblogging and Slashdot. Except
they simply picked a bunch of the usual links off news feeds and
highlighted whatever fit Joey Anuff's left-wing jollies. Plus it took
to long to load. Good riddance.
|
Name: EllenSmith
Email: violethorvath
Date: Sat Jun 9 00:55:37 2001
Comment: "I was afraid that Suck joining Plastic would lead to this. A sad day and yes it really does suck. "
Hey do you have a name or what?
|
Name: EllenSmith
Email: violethorvath@hotmail.com
Date: Sat Jun 9 00:51:59 2001
Comment: I mean I understand what you're saying but I'm getting a little tired of all the doom and gloom.
As far as I'm concerned it's like Randy Johnson said. He said "I
know what I did." Well they know what they did. You know what you did.
I know what I did. And they did it. All this crap about people not
knowing if they did something when of course they did something. They
did. They are. You are. We are. We've done what we've done and we'll do
what we'll do and it is what it is. It's just like when Edith Piaf
sings about Non, Je Ne Regrette Rien. Well she did what she did,
Randy Johnson did what he did and like Renoir said when everybody
tried to overanalyze what he did he said, "They're just roses." I never
have even understood what Plastic is, but it is what it is. Renoir was
what he was. And if he were still alive he'd be doing what he did and
that's why people need to keep doing what they do. And frankly there is
nothing wrong with roses being roses and people doing what they do.
Suck did what they did, it was big and they did it. And sometimes doing
what you do is enough even if you're not sure what you did. And I think
everybody knows that it's enough to have done what we all did. |
Name: bill
Email: bill@netslaves.com
Date: Sat Jun 9 00:50:27 2001
Comment: Steve,
This is a very thoughtful and balanced article -- far better than I could muster at this point.
While I was never a big fan of FEED, I respected what they did, and
FWIW, thought Steven Johnson was a very nice fellow. As for Suck,
Jesus! They had a tendency to piss me the fuck off. But in the end,
they were, as you say, directly responsible for the likes of us, FC,
and all the other "edgy" sites out there. Personally, I don't think
we've seen the last of them. They have a cult following and I think
Joey will figure out some way to bring them back.
The most curious aspect of this whole thing, to me, is how Plastic
will continue operations. Is this another case of APBNews, with folks'
soldiering on despite the ineviable? I don't know. It certainly seems
that way.
I would prefer to keep my personal feeling about how Plastic
treated us to myself. But I will say this much: it was a good idea that
could've been executed better. |
Name:
Email:
Date: Sat Jun 9 00:42:21 2001
Comment: I was afraid that Suck joining Plastic would lead to this. A sad day and yes it really does suck.
|
Name: teanicitus
Email:
Date: Sat Jun 9 00:41:19 2001
Comment:
A sad day. Back when I lived in the hells of South Iowa Suck brightend
my day. They will be sorely missed and I keep hpoing to hear that
rumors of their demise are greatly exagerrated |
|
|
|
