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Is EVERYBODY on Meds? (How Anti-Depressants Are Turning Us All Into Robots) Posted Mon May 21 03:29:30 2001 by orooney By Bill Lessard Perhaps it's the circles I travel in, but a lot of people I know are on anti-depressants. Could someone tell me what the deal is? Are people that truly depressed, or is it the fact that drug companies are marketing these things like Pepsi and "healthcare providers" are more than willing to get that little commission? I suspect the latter. Maybe I'm crazy, but whatever happened to getting really sick of your life, falling into a good old-fashioned funk, and either having a complete nervous breakdown or becoming so enraged with your situation that you actually DO something about it? Are we no longer permitted to be pissed off at our dreadful existences? Is everything always supposed to be "OK"? How many times have you run across someone who says, "Well, I lost my job, I got hit by a bus, my mother died, I'm being evicted from my apartment, but I'm FINE." Fine? You should be flipping your goddamned lid. And what's more, you and anyone who's your friend should tell you that it's OK to be flipping your lid. When the hell did we all turn into such robots? As someone who's fought depression most of my life, I can tell you that I've learned the most about myself from those deep, dark periods. Does the term "catharsis" mean anything to you out there? "Catharsis," as in "screaming, throwing up your hands, punching the first person who pisses you off in the face, crying hysterically, kicking stuff and then, magically, feeling better." Of course, all the folks I know who are depriving themselves of this experience are all seeing therapists. Now, as someone (again) who's had his share of his ups and downs (and more downs than ups) and someone who isn't the posterboy of mental health, let me tell you that therapists don't know jack shit. They're probably as screwed up or even more screwed up than we are. And what, for that matter, is "psychology"? Psychology is really just "sociology" or "socialization" in the sense that the whole purpose of the process is to make you like everyone else. Well, what if you don't want to be like everyone else? And what if you're of the mind that everyone else and society in general is fucked up? Let me put it to you this way: if this were the 19th century and you went and told a psychologist that you were gay, they'd say you were "insane." These days, they'd tell you were fine, but they'd give you a prescription for the latest "anti-homophobia" anxiety medication or some such shit. But then, doctors aren't even "doctors" anymore - they're "healthcare providers" - like Internet providers, cable providers and on and on. They have even less authority than they'd used to have, so really, what the hell do they know? So many of my friends tell me about their experiences with their therapists and the stuff that goes on makes me want to throw up. How many of your friends refer to their therapists by their first names or say things like, "Oh, wait until Marty hears about this one!!!" Fuck Marty. Marty charges you 75 bucks an hour to listen to your bullshit, and gives you drugs you don't have to face your miserable damn' self. Anybody with two active brain cells knows what the hell they're doing wrong, they just don't want to really fix the problem. They want Marty and his magic fuckin' pills to do it for them. You keep going out with guys who are assholes? STOP! Your boss is pushing you around? Find another job and then put a boot up his ass! Your parents are trying to run your life? Tell them to mind their own fuckin' businesss. As for the more weighty existential issues like the death of a parent you didn't like very much and all that, remember this: there is no closure. That stuff is always going to be with you. You can forget about it for a while, and you'll think you've got it licked, when one sunny day you'll be walking along and BAM!, there it is in your mind, as if it just happened yesterday. And you know what? That's just LIFE, friends. Yes, I am a very angry guy. But that's OK. Anger is my fuel. It motivates me to make changes in my life. It doesn't make me the most pleasant person to be around at times, but I could care less. I'm not here to make you feel comfortable. I'm here to get something DONE before I'm dead. If you don't like it, you can go fuck yourselves with your meds. And you can tell me to go fuck myself. As you like it. I'll be kicking something, or ranting on this website, like I just did, and I'll be feeling better before you can get that prescription filled.   Posted Comments: post a comment! Name: Email: Comment: Name: Email: Date: Thu Jun 14 14:55:20 2001 Comment: Perhaps it's the circles I travel in but many people I once knew have committed suicide. Name: tgcm Email: Date: Mon Jun 4 15:14:56 2001 Comment: Very insightful and passionate post, Bill. And I know how "Marty" might feel about that one. On the meds sub, had a fairly long relationship with a shrink (the med doc kind) who eventually basically stopped giving the major ADs because so many patients were not taking them correctly. The patients who playing around with their prescription instructions were the most likely to reporting benefits from the meds. Shrink also had problems with patients who saw treatment as a caf? where they could order things (diagnosis, drugs, treatments) that they'd read about in newsgroups or magazines. Lost patients for being stingy with the candy, but felt better about helping people. Had more energy to try and convince people court-ordered to seek therapy that maybe, just maybe, the should consider some drug therapy. I think this says a lot about who needs and benefits from currently available drugs. Name: Pixie Email: Date: Wed May 30 16:00:26 2001 Comment: Depression is not about feeling terrible when bad things are happening. It is about feeling terrible all of the time NO MATTER WHAT IS HAPPENING. If you are clinically depressed, taking those pills can help you feel normal emotions again-- including normal ups and downs, including despair, which you can the learn from. Do you see the difference? I read a poem once that had a line like: sadness is when I feel the bird in my heart pounding against its cage... depression is when I can hear nothing at all. Name: Henry Email: lafleurh@worldnet.att.net Date: Wed May 30 14:09:14 2001 Comment: Well, you can smoke a joint to calm down, but that would be illegal. So why is it being kept illegal? Probably because the drug companies can't make money from something you grow in your backyard. And who runs the partnership for a drug free America? The drug companies. Lesson? Don't believe the hype (or the drug-pushing therapists), take it easy, and move into the country and out of the urban hellholes that are driving you nuts! Name: flameproof Email: katyzei@outgun.com Date: Tue May 29 03:46:52 2001 Comment: ..or modern lack of value system and deathstyle. i'm sorry your friends are zombies, dude. yay, mike. Name: mike Email: Date: Mon May 28 23:55:18 2001 Comment: This article is good. I have a few friends who are on these meds, the weirdest aspect of it is they are trying to get me on them. It's like invasion of the body snatchers, where the infected were focused on making others like them. "You're depressed, take some" "No, I get depressed when bad things happen, that is normal" I think it really bothers them that I get by fine without the drugs. That I haven't bought into their modern value system and lifestyle. Name: overlord Email: overlord@visi.com Date: Fri May 25 12:05:13 2001 Comment: I emailed this in, but wanted to post it too. ================================================ Just a thank you for Bill Lessard's "Is EVERYBODY on Meds?" I just wanted to say thank you for posting Bill's article. I feel very similiar to Bill and it is nice to see it being posted in such an excellent way. I hope that you can pass on this word of thanks to Bill himself. I took the liberty of posting it on my news site (with link to the original article) and I certainly hope that is okay (word of mouth/advertising and all that). Joe Moshier, CCNA MCSE aka Overlord overlord@visi.com Director WebWarrior - Hangout for the Techs http://www.webwarrior.net Name: inkstains Email: inkstains@hotmail.com Date: Fri May 25 05:38:14 2001 Comment: A guy I've known since high school doesn't like the way his perscribed prozac makes him feel. He quits taking it and starts smoking pot instead. He swears he feels much better now. Myself, I prefer sleep deprivation and caffine. Nothing like the sleep that finally comes from literal exhaustion to change your perspective on the world. Name: Christopher Email: florydance@earthlink.net Date: Thu May 24 19:17:54 2001 Comment: Once was a doc who looked at my head, gave me some meds which just put me to bed, Took dem pills back to da doc and told him it was a croc. All I wanted was a blood test not a brain seist, the kind ya get with a physical, to take your cho-lest-ter-all and not get whimisical. But dey could'nt du dat - oh noo, dey had to charge me and let me go. No cho-lesty-rally, no health map of my bod, no Rand-McNally. Listen to dem admistrators call it, just whip out your check book - just whip out your wallet, cause dey gonna make you pay for dis really uuugly day... Right on people! Tell it like it is! F___K doz Mo-Fos!! Name: Christopher Email: florydance@earthlink.net Date: Thu May 24 18:58:47 2001 Comment: Once was a doc who looked at my head, gave me some meds which just put me to bed, Took dem pills back to da doc and told him it was a croc. All I wanted was a blood test not a brain seist, the kind ya get with a physical, to take your cho-lest-ter-all and not get whimisical. But dey could'nt du dat - oh noo, dey had to charge me and let me go. No cho-lesty-rally, no health map of my bod, no Rand-McNally. Listen to dem admistrators call it, just whip out your check book - just whip out your wallet, cause dey gonna make you pay for dis really uuugly day... Right on people! Tell it like it is! F___K doz Mo-Fos!! Name: Jenna Email: fp37tk@netzero.net Date: Thu May 24 13:23:22 2001 Comment: You're right. This world has replaced meaningful self-analysis with Prozac. What's even worse is this emerging trend of medicating 3-year olds....for being 3-year olds! People have forgotton how to deal without drugs, and we have been brainwashed into thinking that they are the only solution to society's ills. Here's another topic for you to debate: why has our government declared some drugs as perfectly legal and safe while others are proclamied as dangerous to society? Name: forever jung Email: Date: Thu May 24 11:41:29 2001 Comment: yeah.. you're not so high-functioning yourself! Name: Anonymous Coward Email: aol@aol.com Date: Thu May 24 11:02:34 2001 Comment: Blah blah blah blah. You're a very angry guy. You are also a moron. Name: forever jung Email: Date: Thu May 24 06:12:34 2001 Comment: James Hillman says that 100 years of psychotherapy have taught us to internalize all our problems. Instead of agitating politically we just blame ourselves for everything. I encourage you all to check out the Futurist Radio Hour interview at: http://www.members.home.net/archetypal-psychology/Hillman.htm Name: Arf D. Arf Email: Date: Thu May 24 00:49:02 2001 Comment: There is no way I can read through all the posts. so I'll keep it brief. If you live in a world where there are no alternative or healthy ways to let off steam or access to resources to change your life, you are going to go crazy. Period. Most people will try and change what they can if something in their life is wrong or causing them to suffer. But not everyone has access to the needed resources. Ever. In our modern society, simple justice is gone for good and stopping the source of your problem is often illegal. As an example, say you are being blacklisted while looking for work. How do you rememdy this situation without money (hey, you're out of work remember) or threatening the source with physical harm? You can't. Vicious cycle begins. And that's just one simple example of life in these modern times. The list is endless. As one who has been to the edge and survived, I can tell you that unless you've been there, you haven't a clue. If you have been there, you know you can't explain it to someone who has not suffered as well. The sheltered will always have their heads up their asses. Side note: could you possibly make this input window any damn smaller?! Name: x Email: y Date: Wed May 23 19:20:37 2001 Comment: Great article. There are more people pissed off and depressed now than any other time in the last century, at least. I offer a plausible reason. The PC (political correct) movement, feminism, and popular-crack pshycology are clearly the three greatest forces that will assuridly destroy this country. The good old days of whooping someone's ass to settle a dispute are over. Now there is passive aggressivenss, anger management, and forced psycotherapy. Anger and rage of any kind are not at all permitted in American society. And that is why alot of people are sucumbing to depression and meds. Name: Email: Date: Wed May 23 11:53:31 2001 Comment: It?s very easy to mouth condescending platitudes, too. Equating depression with moral failure is a tired and stupid clich?and the stupidity is only amplified by noting that God is dead, for if God is dead?and, thank God, he is?whence the moralizing injunction to do what is difficult? The difficult task of probing ?the truth about ourselves? assumes that there is an unseen world, one with souls and spirits in some relation of responsibility or allegiance a greater unseen entity?God. But if God is dead, what then? And is fighting against one?s ?own body and mind playing tricks on you? even difficult at all, or is it just another illusion of the truly weak, the mealy mouthed moralizers who can?t accept that there is NO SOUL and NO SELF? But since we?re investigating the character of the modern moralist, let?s not stop there I?m sure we?ve all known people who, after a workday spent offering slavish obedience to pinhead bosses, go home and abuse their pets?or partners, or children. This is repulsive weakness: cringing before power, and violence towards greater weakness. Don?t we see the same repulsive combination, cringing and violence, in someone who writes that ?the world changes too fast, and those that can?t change fast enough are destined to suffer,? and that the mentally ill live in an ?easier? world? Those who glorify suffering usually have done little of it themselves, and have much to gain from the suffering of others. I?ll believe their garbage when they volunteer to get punched in the stomach and smacked upside their pointy heads and take it?hey, it should improve their character, right? Until then, they can shut the fuck up. Name: flameproof Email: katyzei@outgun.com Date: Wed May 23 10:37:15 2001 Comment: It's very easy to be a victim. It's very easy to put the blame on society, on the fact that you were abused when a child, or that your parent(s) died when you were young, for your ills. Very easy to live in the past. It's very easy to say "well, I'm really sick" and believe doctors who say you have a real disease like manic depression or schizophrenia. Very easy to lose faith in your own will to change since you are so stricken. Very easy to be angry, to hate yourself, others, pills. Very easy to complain about the world, to feel helpless, to be weak. Very easy to react without direction, act out emotionally, not rationally, and to mistake that for change. Much easier to search for a shoulder to cry on, and then say everything feels better, therefore it is. Much more difficult to realize that the harder you push it down, the more violently it comes back up when, where and how you least expect it. Much much more difficult is to see the truth about ourselves. The truth really hurts. Hurts more when we shine the light on ourselves. It takes true strength of character to admit that our failings to be happy are our own fault. Mental illness cause you to be detached from reality and to live in a world of your own. Much easier to escape to that world. Much more difficult to see a world that each one of us has helped create, flaws and all, and see the beauty in it. Much more difficult to accept responsibility of ourselves and our planet, for those that kill, for those who are killed. Much harder to push through your own neurochemicals that delude you into certain ways of thinking. Much harder to fight against your own body and mind playing tricks on you. God is dead, we are too well-fed and ill-equipped to be philosophical and introspective enough to be truly happy. The world changes too fast, and those that can't change fast enough with it are destined to suffer. Evolution is continuous. Name: I'm dysfunctional, You're Dysfuctional Email: Date: Tue May 22 23:55:51 2001 Comment: I think there is hope for the all unemployed dotgoners afterall. You all can now train to become therapists. It appears that the psychobable field is expanding rapidly in this tough economic environment. And who better to understand the unique qualities and egos of the failed dotcomers. Why another failure of course! Remember: You can't sing the blues, if you haven't paid your dues. What a price to pay! LOL Name: Happy Email: Date: Tue May 22 18:28:33 2001 Comment: The real trouble with therapists is finding one who is smarter than you are. We manic-depressives, tend to be a very bright bunch and are very much aware of the shortcomings of the medical profession. An idiot with a degree is still an idiot. I take serzone, it is wonderful, and my life is so much better with it than without. Yes, I have used myself as a lab rat and experimented with dosage and many other factors. Of course a good diet, exercise and less stress help people like me but nothing has helped me even out my life like Serzone. Name: Dr. Phil Email: Date: Tue May 22 17:30:20 2001 Comment: Don?t overlook the value of hobbies (and, again, 8 hrs of sleep, including cat naps you?re not missing anything important). Hobbies. In Mexico, I worked with a woman who was a disciple of that county?s founder of education for emotional/mental handicapped children. Until she arrived, these kids were just written off. After years of work and research she found that the mind benefited from relaxing activities (hobbies) that triangulated these three faculties at once: a) the eyes, b) the hands, and c) the mind. In her school, she included such things as knitting, crocheting, sewing, cooking, model building, carpentry, and metal work. Further research showed that when these three faculties are triangulated on purposeful activity, the mind enters a healing, alpha state, similar to that achieved through prayer or meditation. Name: Queenie Email: Date: Tue May 22 17:14:50 2001 Comment: Anyway, who cares if you like to talk to yourself. at least you'll always have someone to talk to. Personally, i like talking to my appliances - you know, the damn temperamental computer, the ever finicky toaster, etc. Name: MasterPo Email: Date: Tue May 22 16:50:58 2001 Comment: I like the voices in my head. They keep me company. :-) Name: tw croft Email: Date: Tue May 22 16:29:49 2001 Comment: In the 1950s through the 1970s, in Augusta Ga., Dr. Cleckley ruled the psycho institution. Heard of Dr. Cleckley, a psychiatric pioneer? Cleckley probably epitomized Augusta the best during that time. He lived behind a spooky, gated wooded area in the upscale hills. He was famous for being the psychiatrist who pioneered the revolutionary electric shock therapy, which converted the three faces of Eve not back into one, but eventually, two dozen or so (the part not covered by the book or movie). In the late 60s and early 70s, he was doing a solid business in Augusta on referrals of wealthy parents to assist their slightly disturbed teen who had had a bummer of a trip or had grown their hair a tad too long. Many would be shocked beyond memory, and if you talked to them at school or wherever, they would acknowledge you like, haven't I seen you before? Uhh?gotta go, I'm late for Latin. A friend of mine who visited his clinic once said it was full of young freaks, drug addicts and kids who were just a bit confused. A bunch of our friends who lived in a wacky-assed communal neighborhood we created from the old broken down gothic southern mansions up on the old "hill" were planning a midnight raid to break her out. Fortunately, she escaped without brainal meltdown. Another friend of mine, a young rebel with a great personality, but with rich parents, took a visit. He came out a noodle, and never saw his current "bad" friends again. The words?."you might wind up in Cleckley", or, "they're gonna send you to Cleckley" would strike the fear of god in you. They say he was a pruny old man with coke-bottle glasses and wiry hair, and, supposedly, from what we heard, had a disarmingly warm demeanor. Kind of like a cross between Joyce Brothers and Kervorkian. The "Behavioral Health" Building at University Hospital in Augusta is named the Cleckley Building for the old succubus. Don't go there. They closed down some of his shock programs, and shock therapy was seen for years as bad voodoo by the profession, although I understand it's making slight comeback. I went to a shrink once when I was coming off some bad trips around 1970, pushed by my folks. I talked for an hour, which I guess what you always do, as I did the same thing for several visits to a marriage counseler. The shrink would nod his head, unhmm, unhmm, etc., and at one point as I peered over the pad he was writing on, I could vaguely make out, upside down, C-L-E-C-K-L-E-Y being scratched on the pad. YIKES! At the end of the session, I said thanks for the session, and left. Er, yea, I'll call for another session. (Adios, asshole). At least you don't have Cleckley to deal with. Thank god for small wonders, eh? If you need help get it, whatever it takes. I took anti-depressants for a half-year after a divorce, and then finally got over it, and got tired of being under water. My salvation has aways been, as Mother Jones supposedly said, don't mourn for the dead, fight for the living. Anyway, good luck. Name: Email: Date: Tue May 22 14:32:46 2001 Comment: It would certainly be nice if psychotherapy weren't so prohibitively expensive. I had a girlfriend who was bipolar but also had beaucoup ISSUES which could only be dealt with through therapy aimed at gaining insight. Name: nan Email: Date: Tue May 22 14:24:28 2001 Comment: There are a couple of issues that probably need to be separated out, and likely already have, since I haven't been able to wade through the morass of comments here: 1. No doubt about it, doctors are far, far more likely to prescribe medication than do anything else. I think I read somewhere that 89% of all diagnoses of mental illness leads to medication prescription. 2. There are people who, without medication, would not function. PTSD is a good example, so is obsessive-compulsive disorder or manic depression. 3. There has been a serious shift from behavioral therapy a la Freud to the assumption that all mental illness is rooted in biology, which leads to medication, which leads to...whatever it may lead to. The problem is that, of course, it's a hell of a lot easier to give someone a drug than it is to tackle the root of the problem. One of my closest friends was on Paxil for years, and it played such havoc with her mind that it eventually led to her getting hospitalized a year and a half ago. Now she's on no medication, and while she has bad days aplenty, at least therapy and good friendship and support is helping her to tackle what the problems really are. It would be nice if there was a happy medium in psychiatry (b/c psychologists aren't the ones who should be prescribing meds if they are, that's illegal and they should be reported) whereby the biological and the behavioral aspects of mental illness was blended into a happy medium, and where therapy was more designed to get people to fully realize their own coping mechanisms instead of creating a false quick fix. But I doubt it... The other problem, which is what I think Bill is talking about, is that medication dependency for those that are only "situationally depressed" creates a lack of accountability. Humans are amazingly resilient for example it's perfectly natural to go into a depression, even a severe one, when there is great trauma, like a death in the family. But we do have mechanisms for coping and for carrying on and for getting back to some semblance of normalcy. Medication sometimes helps but it also creates the feeling of a problem being "fixed" that is false Name: doggywhirl Email: Date: Tue May 22 13:25:21 2001 Comment: Pearl Good riddance to that offensive speech. Sneaky?? Isn?t that an oxymoronic notion in warfare? The Mexicans have a saying: ?He who strikes first, strikes twice.? Name: B Labor Email: Date: Tue May 22 12:56:13 2001 Comment: Re: MastePo: Good work there..you must always be gray to satisfy the Great god moloch..any other color of the spectrum interferes with maximizing shareholder value..can't have that.. Name: Ertischeck Email: Date: Tue May 22 12:53:03 2001 Comment: Re: Sun article about Pearl Harbor.. As usual, Mad Magazine saw it a long time ago..In the 60s, Mad had an article on future war movies, showing how they would get more "sensitive" and understanding of the enemy's position and feelings over time..Never forget the movie of the 1980s or so..it has FDR apologizing to Hirohito because exploding US warships had given japanese pilots headaches and earaches..delicious satire at the time..now you can't even write satire anymore..it writes itself.. Name: Email: Date: Tue May 22 12:49:45 2001 Comment: Grant writes: "Is going to therapy a form of whining? No more than ranting on a Web site. " Therapy - if you have a good therapist - can be a lot of work, and it can be pretty frightening at times. I think people who've been through it and have progressed will agree. I think people who have never been in therapy will poke fun. Go for it. Name: me Email: Date: Tue May 22 12:41:36 2001 Comment: Boris http://www.thesun.co.uk/news/13707971 Yup, that just about sums up the 'state of things' God help us all! Name: Email: Date: Tue May 22 12:38:33 2001 Comment: I wasn't ever able to get angry until the drugs kicked in. Now people wonder what happened to the "nice" (depressed) guy who used to eat shit. BHAHAHAHAHA! AD are not tranqs. Get it straight, shithead! Name: Jack H Email: Date: Tue May 22 12:28:59 2001 Comment: That adbusters URL... http://adbusters.org/magazine/36/toxic/ Name: dotcolon Email: Date: Tue May 22 12:11:24 2001 Comment: See Molly Ivins' column on PharmaPorn... kind of disgusting. http://web.star-telegram.com/content/fortworth/columnist/1955183270.htm?template=articleTemplateID.htm Name: MasterPo Email: Date: Tue May 22 12:09:41 2001 Comment: It seems like these days the world doesn't like it when youi're happy. The world is happiest when you're depressed. True story: While working at a former job I heard a speech (off the job or course) that was very inspiring. Hadn't been so inspired before, nor since. I decided to really try to live by the philosophy expressed in the speech. The next day at work I put on my new outlook on life and began trying to live the new way. Didn't tell anyone about the speech or what I was doing. Just tried to live life differently. It failed. My management seemed to detect my more up beat, positive attitude. They dumped so much shit on me over the next several weeks. Each time I tried to bounce back but it gre harder and harder. And the more I tried to smile in the face of the adversity they more then shit on me. Finally, after a little over a month, management won. I gave up my new POV and went back to gray. Then they let up on me. My work load lightened somewhat, not as much crap came my way, etc. They were happiest when I was sadest. Just couldn't win. Name: Grant Email: ggross66@yahoo.com Date: Tue May 22 11:47:19 2001 Comment: I won't deny that anti-depression medicine is over-prescribed, but Bill is failing to see the difference between feeling depressed because of your shitty circumstances and the medical condition of clinical depression. Of course you're suppose to feel shitty when bad things are happening to you. That's natural and there would be something wrong if you didn't feel shitty when you lost your job or got dumped or whatever. But if things are going well, and you still can't seem to pull your ass out of bed in the morning, that may be a problem. And if you can't recover from that funk after you lost your job, that may be a problem. Different people have different ways of dealing with stress. Bill's way is ranting on this Web site. I don't know if that'd be healthy for everyone, but it seems to work for him. Other people choose therapy. Does therapy work every time? Probably not. But sometimes, it gives people a independent observer to call them on some problems they keep repeating. Is going to therapy a form of whining? No more than ranting on a Web site. As for drugs, it is gallingly easy to get anti-depression drugs these days, it's true. But they actually do help some people. Do they have side effects? You bet, but then sugar pills have side effects. All medications offer trade-offs, and at least the side-effects should make people think twice about taking the medications for a few days of the blues. Name: DavaJii Email: DavaJii@hotmail.com Date: Tue May 22 11:45:34 2001 Comment: Brilliant. My sentiments exactly. Name: me Email: Date: Tue May 22 11:36:43 2001 Comment: >>I can eat Vindaloo without breaking a sweat. BUT my favorite spice is Wasabi! Just pile it on and you can reach a magical state.<< Thanks Bill. Not seen this in the H-M. Is it available by mail order? My mother-in-law could use some :-) I try to avoid hot, spicy food, myself, as it's linked to cancer of the bowel and arseophagous - if you can't spell it or be bothered to look it up, why even try! :-). Sadly, I have some friends who can drink 10 pints of lager and eat a Vindaloo who seem to think that, with sufficient practice, I might also be able to do it. Urrrrggggh. 4 states of mind: I'm OK, you're OK I'm OK, you're not OK I'm not OK, you're OK I'm not OK, you're not OK Seems to me there are a lot of people ('too many') about fitting into the last 'category'. It's a shame cos if you (can) fit the first or are 'lucky' (we make our own luck?) enough to be surrounded by people/friends who fit the first, you've got a better chance of being happy. That's what I really think. I certainly know who I'd rather be in the company of, given the choice. Anyway, some writers write to be taken seriously, some don't seem to. Summer is nearly upon us and I'm preparing to take my annual summer hol, get some fresh air etc. - it'll be good be back home in Iceland as I don't operate too well much above 23degC. See you all next Fall. Remember to eat plenty of fresh fruit and veg, drink at least 2 litres of pure water (filtered through carbon) per day, take some mental and physical excercise daily and smile/laugh once in a while! Oh, 'pets' are also great for helping put life in perspective. Where there's new life, there's new hope! That's all Folks! Best Wishes, Elma Fudd Name: Email: Date: Tue May 22 10:39:54 2001 Comment: . . . speechless. . . Name: Boris K. Fabian Email: Date: Tue May 22 10:20:17 2001 Comment: Okay folks...its come to this... http://www.thesun.co.uk/news/13707971 Name: Email: Date: Tue May 22 10:05:46 2001 Comment: Steve, Your comments about PTSD are well taken. I spent two and fraction tours in Nam. I was dragged back to The World and dropped into a series of hospitals that permitted me a gradual decompression. The guys who were in the 36 hours up and out group obviously didn't get the same gradual reintroduction to what we'd left, let alone the really different world that had mutated in our absence. I've been in therapy for the last ten years, which helped. Lots of survivor guilt.... My nightmares are down to about two or three per week, roughly 29 years after I caught the mercy bird. I talked with my father about his-- he served in the Pacifc during WW2, and then Korea-- before he passed on in 92. His were dialed back to about one per week, so I guess it gets better. What's truly wierd is that the best description of this is taken from that wretched Stallone film, "First Blood": All I have to do is close my eyes, and it's all still there. And it never, never goes away. Name: Email: Date: Tue May 22 09:10:07 2001 Comment: take some wasabi, put it on a water cracker, chew thoroughly and then breathe in and out through your nose. . . you'll never need medication again. Name: steve gilliard Email: sgilliard@netslaves.com Date: Tue May 22 07:56:35 2001 Comment: Wally, My father worked in a locked psychiatric ward for a decade. Hardly the universe of WWII vets. Actually, PTSD manifests itself in different ways. The worse cases seem to be in those who saw heavy combat and then were discharged immediately after their combat duty. But remember, it can be triggered by any subsequent event. I just saw a documentary where a British sailor recalled having nightmares for 50 years about ONE incident in his wartime service. That's 50 years. Men who survived Normandy had PTSD triggered by Saving Private Ryan. These are men all over 70 and the events in question happened over 50 years previously, and these men lived functional lives. Name: bill Email: bill@netslaves.com Date: Tue May 22 07:45:29 2001 Comment: eudas, Uh, I wrote the piece. So that should count for something. As for everyone else, they've been busy, but they'll be back shortly. Name: eudas Email: Date: Tue May 22 05:18:54 2001 Comment: is it just me, or is gilliard the only guy actually doing anything on this site? seems like all the other writers have dropped out or something. plus, he's pretty much the only one i see commenting on anything anymore besides the site's regulars. steve's cool and all, but it'd be nice if someone besides him would do something once in a while. Name: Bill Volk Email: bvolk@youworkit.com Date: Mon May 21 23:10:24 2001 Comment: >Only people from India should have a Vindaloo after 10 pints of Lager. I can eat Vindaloo without breaking a sweat. BUT my favorite spice is Wasabi! Just pile it on and you can reach a magical state. Name: Brain Dead Email: Date: Mon May 21 22:43:26 2001 Comment: By the way, Bill. Right on! Name: Brain Dead Email: Date: Mon May 21 22:42:11 2001 Comment: By the way, what other people think and do does concern me. You can't learn by having a closed mind. But you also can't accomplish anything by stalling while you try to figure out "who you really are" which is what many people do with the psychological/medicinal options available today. That street's a dead end. Name: Brain Dead Email: Date: Mon May 21 22:30:20 2001 Comment: Hey, I'm all for better living through chemistry. There is, however, a concept that too much of a good thing is detrimental to one's health. When you start relying on other people or medicine to take care of you, you give up the right to self determination. Too many subscribe to the theory that "I'm only as good as my (medication, therapist, friends) make me." et. al. We've become a culture of victims determined to absolve ourselves of any responsibilities we try to pin all problems on the back of others. It's easy to do. Try talking to someone about whatever. Do they listen? Likely as not they'll override your concerns with tales of their own woes. Boy, that makes me feel better. Thanks for "listening." Now I have to go pay for someone to listen to my bag of shit as well as the bag of shit you just laid on me. Or I can take care of myself. Gee, what a concept. Medicine therapy can do wonders for those who really need them. If you feel you need help, by all means get some. But before you do, or before you spend too much, think about what it is that's bugging you and decide if you want to subject yourself to others opinions about your sanity. By the way, I work 10 hours a day for a network integrator who concentrates on sales instead of finished networks and customer service, have gone to school for the past 3 years finishing the bachelors degree I should have gotten 15 years ago, am married, and have a 14 year old stepson who worships his father (9 DUI's, 2 jail terms, child support only when the state makes him)who gave up responsibility for him years ago but is still around. The kid loves to remind me I'm not his father and threatens me with violence about once a month for the last year. This is just a basic synopsis. I wallow in my own self pity every once in awhile. If you don't, you're not what most of us would term human. I feel good about myself anyway. You all should too. Name: Wally Email: wloude@mailexcite.com Date: Mon May 21 22:27:06 2001 Comment: Umm, Steve, where you said: "Two, function on Thorazine is better than screaming your head off and replaying your best friend getting his head blown off in the Ardenness for 25 years. Or how the Chinese were stacked up like cordwood outside your foxhole on the Chosen Resevoir. It's a lot better than that." I am not sure that a very significant percentage of WWII or Korean War combat vets are (or were) on Thorazine. Most of them just switched off when they came home and resumed their lives. What saved them was that they had a significant percentage of the male population to relate to and talk with about what had happened. After Vietnam, we began to see more of the PTSD cases. There were very few PTSD cases among the guys who opted to stay in service because they had their compatriots to laugh and joke about it with. The guys who went off the deep end were the guys who got discharged at the bottom of the steps of the airplane bringing them back to the US, then went home to where nobody could relate to them. Name: Duffy Email: Date: Mon May 21 22:01:41 2001 Comment: Correction: Only people from India should ATTEMPT a Vindaloo after 10 pints of Lager. Burp. Never mind, I'll be up all night rewriting Linux 2.4 Kernel. Sorry about the typing! Sleep when the sun comes up! -> I'll stink anyway, so bed is the best place to Fester. Name: Duffy Email: Date: Mon May 21 21:30:49 2001 Comment: Dr Phil. >>Sleep Debt research is indicating that we really NEED about 8 hours a day. When we don?t get it, the quality of our thinking deteriorates<< Sleep deprevation indeed shrinks the brain. Cognitive ability, higher reasoning function and agility, however, are rarely proportionate to the absolute volumentic size of the brain but, rather, the precice electromagnetic alignment of the neurons with the earth's magnetic core, or astonomically predefined astrologically predicted "good days" and, naturally, interconnectivity with the anal passage. Only people from India should have a Vindaloo after 10 pints of Lager. Dr Fudd. Name: Email: Date: Mon May 21 20:55:59 2001 Comment: TrippyZ - Consideration for those who would be left behind prevented has me from buying the rope for a long time. I don't think being made considerate of others is listed in the PDR as an effect of Prozac. Now that would be a dangerous drug. Name: Kenny Rosensweig Email: Date: Mon May 21 20:45:39 2001 Comment: Queenie - Don't apologize for having an opinion. Somebody will disagree no matter what you say. Taking a walk outdoors beats taking prescription poison any day. Hmm.. that makes me wonder how many people have prozac prescriptions because they're depressed about being overweight. Name: Dr. Phil Email: Date: Mon May 21 20:37:17 2001 Comment: Seems like talk about drugs and mental health brings the best out of us. Serious shit. I would add just one thing to this most constructive reflection and to Emily?s excellent synthesis: Get Your Sleep. It?s so square, but a lot of Sleep Debt research is indicating that we really NEED about 8 hours a day. When we don?t get it, the quality of our thinking deteriorates. Name: Kenny Rosensweig Email: Date: Mon May 21 20:36:10 2001 Comment: Steve G - What makes you so sure you know the whole OKC/McVeigh story? Likewise I can't pretend to know McCorkles story but she didn't take anybody else out. Why not say Lee Oswald or even Pol Pot made a decision? Or women that had an abortion? It's apples and oranges, my friend. You're using the kind of tactic that conservative republicans under Bush the elder used to try and outlaw flag burning (which ironically enough is the prescribed method for flag disposal). How about a buddhist monk that torches himself in protest of whatever? That would be a little better comparison. Both make the same point with the same result. One just has a bigger cheering section than the other A lobotomy will calm you down too, but you'll only get billed for that once. Theres a difference between somebody who was either drafted of in the case of a WWII vet signed up to get traumatized and somebody who's depressed because life is a drag.. The former case we're talking about somebody taken against their will and threatened with hard jail time if they didn't cooperate in becoming a trained killer. In the second case we're talking about somebody who made a choice but may have not been fully aware of the potential consequences. Do you think all those happy fun candy WWII musicals were just to sell war bonds? In the latter case you can either suck it up and try to make the best of it, or seek help, if that's what you want, or cash in your chips. FWIW life is a terminal condition, as much as we choose to ignore that fact. Anyway thanks for not taking the Lew Black reference the wrong way. Name: Queenie Email: Date: Mon May 21 20:33:45 2001 Comment: Please do not think i'm slighting the seriousness of mental illness or those who really need such help. Seems that in the past decade, more and more people are seeing a therapist. At times, i've been surprised by an acquaintance who casually mentions their therapist. Perhaps the general upturn in the populace dependency on therapy is a trend? I think many people generally don't need to be popping pills or constantly see psych(ologist/iatrist). Like many folks have mentioned below, it'd probably be a matter of finding a few minutes to take a walk or relax with a good book. Or perhaps they feel they must have a therapist of their own to feel they reached the upper crust of success... Name: steve gilliard Email: sgilliard@netslaves.com Date: Mon May 21 19:14:53 2001 Comment: Kenny, Two points: One, Tim Mcveigh made a decision, why can't we respect that? Look, anyone who walks out of their window, leaves notes and isn't terminally ill, probably could have been saved with an intervention. Not all decisions are good, and unless there's a history of serious illness, preventing a suicide is usually a good thing. Two, function on Thorazine is better than screaming your head off and replaying your best friend getting his head blown off in the Ardenness for 25 years. Or how the Chinese were stacked up like cordwood outside your foxhole on the Chosen Resevoir. It's a lot better than that. We're talking people who would be what we consider homeless today. Fully function is not the right term, but they're more functional as thorazine zombies than not. Name: TrippyZ Email: trippyz@btinternet.com Date: Mon May 21 18:14:41 2001 Comment: My father died at the age of 35 when I was aged four. 28 years later, I think about him every day. I have a disposition to depressive thoughts, but I keep on trucking by remembering how angry I was that my dad died, and left me, mum, and three other siblings. He died a long and painful death, taking a year to pass on. So, when I consider suicide (far too frequently), I think of my kids, and how pissed off they would feel if I took this cop-out. Buzz Name: beer Email: Date: Mon May 21 17:59:48 2001 Comment: And beer is a depressant anyway moron. So I must like depressing my self. Maybe I need some paxil to cure the down after a sixpack, you think the pharm cos will endorse that type of use. Name: beer Email: Date: Mon May 21 17:55:39 2001 Comment: Uh, yea, my father has been manic depressive for 30 years. He was hospitalized and has been on lithium for many many years. He see's an MD to regulate his medicine. Read my fucking post a little better you fucking moron. I said this was not directed at the cliniically depressed. I know up tight housewives who just need a night out on the town and a good lay that are on prozac. It is over prescribed. They do need a new term for depression, it is overused and over prescribed. "The people here posting so breezily about beating depression by drinking some beers are talking out of their asses" Name: Emily Dresner-Thornber Email: emily@netslaves.com Date: Mon May 21 17:52:35 2001 Comment: I am not going to doubt, or question, that there are people who require both medication and psychotherapy, as clinical depression and manic-depression are very real illnesses. Having a little first-hand dealing with these things, I'll never, ever doubt it. However, I am not going to doubt that anti-depressants are heinously over-prescribed, that medication is looked at as a "cure-all" to "fix all problems," and that prozac is quickly becoming the crutch of a new generation who not only can't deal with their problems, but won't. I'm also not going to doubt that seeing a therapist is currently considered trendy, cool, and hip. The fact is, a large majority of the folks who are going on these anti-depressants _need something else_ -- usually nothing more than better diets and exercise. It's a fact that a lack of vitamin C and zinc in your system will cause lethargy, drowsiness, an inability to cope, moodiness, and other symptoms of depression. The number one cause of the depletion of vitamin C and zinc in the system is stress. Netslaves, typically, are under mountains of stress. And because of these symptoms, people have the nasty habit of self-diagnosing, going to their GP, and saying, "I feel bad, give me prozac." And the GP does. Most people eat poorly, exercise irregularly (me too that way -- I'm changing that), do not manage their time well, and have habits that cause hypertension, moodiness, obesity, and yes, low-grade depression. If they would stop, examine what they eat, where their time goes, what they are doing, and who they are spending their time with, additudes could be adjusted accordingly. Your body is a machine. Treat it will, and it will treat you accordingly. Medication and therapy is too often used as a tool of the hip 90's whiner who refuse to admit that their problems lie in their diet, their habits, and themselves. It's too often used by the doctors as a quick cure-all to get the patient out of the office because the HMO demands the doctor sees X patients per day. No one wants to say, "Go out and get on a bike." But I will. If you're feeling down and blue, you need to get out. Go ride a bike and take the specially formulated stress vitamins. They're available at your local grocery store. You'll feel a zillion times better. Your body is just telling you what you need. And here's a completely different rant: The biggest lie, the biggest lie of all, is my favorite one that I see on a commercial on tv: that paxil or prozac will now cure PMS. How an SSRI will cure an imbalance in estrogen excretion is quite beyond me, but there you go, right from the mouths of the marketing departments. Heck, a large portion of female moodiness, mood swings, and low-grade depression is nothing more than an imbalance of estrogen and testosterone. Now, your local OB/GYN will inform you, ladies, that your PMS problems are a symptom of something else, that an ultrasound will find out what it is in fifteen minutes, and that hormone imbalances can be dealt with by the proper, measured dosages of hormone treatment -- and that there are many, many out there, and finding the right one for you is no big deal. (And you might say, "But I'm Catholic and birth control is bad!" My answer: it's up to you if you want to feel remarkably, amazingly, night-and-day better or you want to listen to some old men who have never gotten laid. I choose me. Live now.) They'll also tell you that taking an SSRI to mask the symptoms is _bad_, because if you have something serious, and you take prozac to mask it, not only will it eventually go out of control, destroying your rather precious insides, but you get to deal with the side effects of prozac, too. Don't take the happy pills. Go see the right doctor. It's a scam. Take it from one who knows, knows deeply, fought it for twelve very long years, and knows your pain. Name: Former Paxil Junkie Email: Date: Mon May 21 16:46:28 2001 Comment: > But there is also situational depression, as in > getting fired/divorced/evicted. You need to get > help with those issues as well. A therapist can > do a lot to help you get better. But you have > to seek the help. Early intervention is a lot > better than waiting until you're at the point > of collapse. Even if things don't turn around > immediately, the therapist can help prevent the > worst bouts of desperation and depression. Exactly, Steve. The people here posting so breezily about beating depression by drinking some beers are talking out of their asses. It is very easy for major disappointment to develop into full-blown depression if not checked in time. I'm convinced that living with profound disappointment for an extended period alters the brain chemistry enough to trigger full-blown depression. The feeling of complete disengagement from life that others have noted here is very real your life soon seems like a movie you're watching, and the prospect of your own death is just an interesting plot development instead of an act with horrific consequences for the people who survive you. I was prescribed Paxil by a psychiatrist, not a GP. And she was a good one, one of the teaching faculty at the UC-San Diego med school. But when you start screwing around with your brain chemistry, there is no way to know what the ultimate result will be. And, because your head is screwed up, you don't realize how much more screwed up you're getting. It's a very vicious circle. I was finally able to break my pattern because of the death of my first wife, who I still cared for deeply, of cancer. Standing before her grave was the greatest shock of my life, and I was totally cured afterwards. The psychiatrist I was seeing at the time compared it to shock therapy, while I compare it to restarting a Windows PC that locked up whatever happened, its like something knocked the depression clean out of my head. Now I know that there's no reason to dispair as long as you're alive there is still the hope for a better tomorrow, and you've really lost nothing as long as you haven't lost your life. I suspect a lot of visitors here are getting dangerously close to the situation I was in 1996. It has to be tough when you were a paper millionaire a couple of years ago and now are broke because the stock collapsed before your options invested. If you feel yourself starting to skid over setbacks like that, don't waste time like I did---seek help immediately. Name: Email: Date: Mon May 21 16:42:18 2001 Comment: Brother Blank - some very successful people or people with everything going for them - who were hopeless and miserable. This is success? My definition of success is "not being a miserable bastard". Success in acquiring material goods might be the accepted definition but as they say "you can't take it with you". This is why people have mid-life crisis. The realize in the big picture it doesn't mean jack shit. Name: Kenny Rosensweig Email: Date: Mon May 21 16:29:12 2001 Comment: Gilly - The kind of deeply disturbed people who were in a locked psychiatric ward and had to be doped up on Thorazine to function daily. Kinda remind me of Lew Blacks "if it weren't for my horse" routine. How is being locked up and whacked out on thorazine equate to being functional? Re: Suzannah McCorkle... She made a decision, why can't you respect that? Drugs don't make your brain chemistry perfect. I saw it first hand with my alcoholic father. Dr's prescribed all kinds of shit for him. Half his 'scripts were to counteract side effects of other drugs. The guy was a mess.. tremors... drooling.. a god awful stink. It landed him in Pilgrim State. After his release (in the 80's when they were striving to get people out), he stopped taking all that crap and was able to return to being a productive member of society. Ok, he was still a functional alcoholic when he died, but it sure beat the shit out of being locked up and drugged into submission. The irony that I could go to jail for smoking a joint, yet the cocksuckers who make a fortune off of really evil shit because it's "medicine" is what makes me gag. Brave New World and 1984 were comic books compared to the world we live in today. I'm glad to see somebody else has a glimmer of insight. Name: Email: Date: Mon May 21 16:14:58 2001 Comment: "I never had sex with that woman" Name: doggywhirl Email: Date: Mon May 21 16:09:52 2001 Comment: Disthymia Hmmmm. Looks and sounds like: -taking the fifth on trumped up charges -?It Wasn?t Me,? when caught in the shower with the other woman -?Is that what you think, Sir?? when pulled over for DUI. Name: Email: Date: Mon May 21 15:58:45 2001 Comment: Disthymia is an affective disorder, blunted emotional response, flat affect. . . Name: i'm all ears Email: Date: Mon May 21 15:48:54 2001 Comment: Blank What is disthymia? Name: LOL Email: Date: Mon May 21 15:37:11 2001 Comment: Just some random thoughts.... Brave New World...Soma...HMMMMMMM! Name: steve gilliard Email: sgilliard@netslaves.com Date: Mon May 21 15:32:51 2001 Comment: Clinical Depression is very, very serious. It can lead to suicide or other self-destructive behavior like suicide by cop. Do not confuse that with whining. My father worked with vets for 36 years, and mental illness is an illness like a broken leg, not a sign of weak character. A lot suffered from PTSD, although that was recognized until the 1970's. The one thing people HAVE to do is get help. But there is also situational depression, as in getting fired/divorced/evicted. You need to get help with those issues as well. A therapist can do a lot to help you get better. But you have to seek the help. Early intervention is a lot better than waiting until you're at the point of collapse. Even if things don't turn around immediately, the therapist can help prevent the worst bouts of desperation and depression. Name: Dr. Phil Email: Date: Mon May 21 15:27:12 2001 Comment: Most folks suffer from situational anxieties, primarily, the fear of failure. My advice. Always remember: a) there?s a big difference between being poor and being broke, b) between a bum and a bohemian, and c) that financial stability usually comes late(r) in life, rather than sooner. Godspeed. Name: Email: Date: Mon May 21 15:14:32 2001 Comment: There are a number of depression-related disorders described in the DSM-IV manual. Being down about one's job, cat, finances, etc. has nothing to do with cliniical depression, disthymia, etc.... Name: doggywhirl Email: Date: Mon May 21 15:10:59 2001 Comment: remedies Take a long walk in tight shoes. It's a surefire method to take your mind away off anytyhing. Try it! Name: B Labor Email: Date: Mon May 21 14:56:17 2001 Comment: Re: Depresssion.. look around folks..there's LOTS to be depressed about..being depressed can be a couragous moral stance in theface of the creeping meatballism out there at every turn..revel in your depression, people.. Name: Boris K. Fabian Email: Date: Mon May 21 14:50:55 2001 Comment: Re: Cold Beer after work! 48 to 64 oz. per day Me..I'm into airline booze sampler bottles.. Name: Beer Email: Date: Mon May 21 14:45:36 2001 Comment: Nothing like a Bangladeshi style flood of the century to eliminate your concerns about your pussy cat, lover, or job. Maybe a Black Death Plague to take your mind off that night out at the opera your husband won't give you. The alternative to small worries don't sound so good. We are too rich, fat, and lazy. We consume too much of everything including pills. Mind you this is not directed at the clinically depressed who are suicidal. Name: Beer Email: Date: Mon May 21 14:39:58 2001 Comment: Cold Beer after work! 48 to 64 oz. per day, tall boys. Helps deal with stress. Cheap too, if you buy Keystone. Name: i'm all ears Email: Date: Mon May 21 14:24:17 2001 Comment: Jack H Whats the url for the adbusters article? Name: NoPriors Email: Date: Mon May 21 14:20:18 2001 Comment: So depressed It?s time for the mental health community to coin a new term for ?clinical depression.? The word ?depressed? is dangerously overused, misused, and abused in public discourse. Clinical depression is a fatal illness. From what I?ve seen, it?s not about disappointment with life, rather increasing disengagement. Name: Anon Email: Date: Mon May 21 14:17:44 2001 Comment: Yeah. I know. My wife is has a Masters in phycology and suggested that I take something to help with my chemical depression when factors for situational depression are high. I can usually keep things under control without meds, but when two factors work together it can get bad. Sorry I didn't elaborate. I was just trying to spare everyone another "I'm depressed" story. Name: Jack H Email: Date: Mon May 21 14:17:14 2001 Comment: Adbusters has a very interesting piece about the amazing increase in mental illnesses and anxiety disorders in the developed world in the past 30 years, and in the phenomenal changes seen in the past few decades in developing countries. Maybe this is a "disease of prosperity". It seems to be happening everywhere. The best advice is to try to balance your life and realize that things happen, and to try not to let something consume you so much that everything to do with it becomes apocalyptic. Three things - a) doing something about a bad situation, b) not expecting to be happy all the time, and not expecting others to be happy all the time, and c) just keeping a little bit detached from things. Name: NoPriors Email: Date: Mon May 21 14:11:19 2001 Comment: Anon, As Steve alluded to... don?t confuse feeling depressed with being depressed. Name: Anon Email: Date: Mon May 21 14:05:30 2001 Comment: So far nobody has mentioned the use of psychedelics. When things get really bad, a good, strong trip helps me. Of course it's not as easy as it sounds and there's a lot of mental preparation before you do such a thing, but the end result is a sort of "reality reboot". Don't forget that there was a lot of really promising research in this area in the 50s and early 60s. Also, no one has mentioned St. John's wort. That's an herbal antidepressant that works well for a lot of people with low-level depression. I take it for short periods when thigs are really bad and it helps. Name: Captain Clunk Email: Date: Mon May 21 14:05:24 2001 Comment: Bill, you've hit on a profound point about depression. Many people count the cost of fixing their problems, then decide not to do anything. Why? Being depressed is the easy way out. We live in a society where success and happiness are considered a right. If you don't get it, it is somebody else's fault. Real self-improvement simply isn't considered. And victimization comes cheap these days, so you can find plentry of shoulders to cry on. That said, there's plenty of evidence that many people have physical impairments than can be helped with meds -- manic depression, for example. But there's a big business for those who want to "help" troubled people live more comfortably with their own messes. Name: Dr. Phil Email: Date: Mon May 21 14:01:59 2001 Comment: Blank I?ll drink to that. Name: Email: Date: Mon May 21 13:50:50 2001 Comment: Phil - I guess that the best thing to say in this case is a simple ?yes, and. . . content here. . . because. . . yes, It's about things that we have, don't have or think we are supposed to consume and the campaign of need creation extends down to the core of our very perception of who we are as people, physical attractiveness, psychological makeup, moral outlook, it's all attacked routinely and the calling into question and being offered consumable products as a panacea or a substitute is the thing. . . this goes to the idea that we are questioning ourselves as people by dint of comparing ourselves to impossible role models of physical attractiveness or emotional adjustment or moral fitness, the money and the consumables are only the carrot. At it?s core, it?s about how we perceive ourselves as people. . . . and Zog really wanted a new spear, the fastback model, increased accuracy, more meat for family. . . And that we?re all being manipulated with varying degrees of success indicates that it is not gender specific. Name: Dr. Phil Email: Date: Mon May 21 13:50:37 2001 Comment: mounting hysteria I am not a medical doctor and I do not pretend to be one on the Web. Suffice to say I am a seeker of truth (Ph.D.). In seriousness, I have provided compassionate support and care to a family member (male) who suffered from hysteria. He died. The hysterical state was the extension of an escalating (untreated) General Anxiety Disorder, that might have been ameliorated with common Valium. Yes, G.A.D affects both sexes but is far more prevalent among females, affecting, I believe, as many as forty percent. As Saroff calls it ?the worried well.? From my first-hand, up-close terrifying look at its end game, my advice to others is ?Better take your meds.? Name: MasterPo Email: Date: Mon May 21 13:44:11 2001 Comment: I avoid therapy and drugs through my hobbies and outside interests. Nothing big, but it does take up my afterwork hours and weekends, and my vacation time. But that's just it - TIME out side work. Tell your boss you can't come in Saturday because you have a hobby or outside interest committment and you're likely to be told if you don't come in Saturday don't bother coming in on Monday! At the very least you'll be thought a slacker, lazy, not committed etc etc. So popping a pill doesn't look as bad to the boss as taking you're nights or weekends off. Unfortunately Name: Eric Email: joker@pave-france.org Date: Mon May 21 13:20:35 2001 Comment: (disclaimer: I'm studying psychology with an eventual goal as a PhD in rehabilitative therapy - helping people with brain damage and such adjust... this is my second degree I'm currently in the IT field... annyywwaay...) Random thoughts: Psychologists "cannot" prescribe anti-depressants. That's the role of the psychiatrist. I know that there has been some (major?) lobbying by (some?) psychologists to have that changed. If there is a benevolent god, this will not happen. I have a friend who had a breakdown. Bipolar disorder. She's on.. something.. now. Initially, her psychiatrist prescribed prozac, and that's when things got REALLY bad and she had to be admitted to a hospital. Her current psychiatrist has put her on some tiny doses of something I can't name. Another friend of mine took prozac for a while. She talked to no psychologist or psychiatrist about it. Instead, she told her family doctor that she was "feeling down" and wanted some prozac and the doctor obliged her. I personally believe in cognitive therapy and improving your situation, but I do understand that sometimes just can'thappen. I had a job that was causing me massive psychosomatic problems (it was making me sick -- literally). I had one bought of insomnia that lasted six weeks. I also picked up some other quirks. As soon as I got a new job, they all went away. It was very nice. My kitten's cuteness helps a lot, too. The prescribed "cure" for hysteria was a hysterectemy. Honest. Studies show that carthasis tends to make things worse you become more angry about a situation the more you vent about it. I'm done. Name: Dr. Phil Email: Date: Mon May 21 13:19:18 2001 Comment: Blank writes:"I seem to remember that you argued against me with some vehemence when I postulated it. . . " The argument I offered at that time to you, or whomever (Blank), was that in the early Sixties, the sociologist Vance Packard documented the objectives and processes of Need Creation used by advertisers in his book, ?The Hidden Persuaders,? and in other publications. The comment by NoPriors hits the nail squarely. Our anxiety is about all the things we desire that we don?t have. But, masculine values have historically emphasized CAPABILITY not consumption i.e., the fastest, strongest, most agile, the smartest, the competent craftsman, the steadfast workman, the vigilant night watchman, the courteous professional doorman, the loyal brother, etc. These were ideals, of course. Well I bet you can all attest to the fact that competence is secondary in this late modern era ?especially in the dotcom realm. The marginalization of professional competence leads to the marginalization of maleness itself. And that is, indeed, a legitimate cause for anxiety. Name: Email: Date: Mon May 21 13:09:31 2001 Comment: On that much Haloperidol you'd be asleep 24 / 7. Name: Email: Date: Mon May 21 13:03:05 2001 Comment: . . . and dr. Phil, I KNOW that you did not mean effeminate, I'm still wondering if the "hysteria" is not just the natural product of the conditioning. Hysteria, from the greek, "hysterikos" meaning womb, Freud coined this term thinking that the general cluster of symptoms was predominant in women, generally not found in men. It was a psychoneurosis marked by emotional instability and excitability as well as disturbances of the psychic, sensory, visceral and cognitive functions. We now know that this difficulty is NOT gender specific. Name: Adam Smith Email: Date: Mon May 21 12:57:57 2001 Comment: You don't need Prozac, that's for sure, Bill. You need about 20 mg I.V. Haldol. Not that you aren't aboslutely correct about how screwed up a society that's all mellowed out by serotonin reuptake inhibitors can appear to somebody who's not taking them. But you've got to realize that in America, when somebody asks how you are, they really don't want to know. You're supposed to say you're fine no matter what. And I'm sure most people know that their therapist is at least as messed up as they are, but they still need somebody to talk to about their pathetic neuroses. THAT'S just life, Bill. Name: Bill Volk Email: bvolk@youworkit.com Date: Mon May 21 12:56:02 2001 Comment: My ant-depressant of choice is a long bike ride. There's nothing like a 20, 30, or even 50 mile ride ... hills and all ... to get me centered. I try to ride every day, even if I wake up in a black-funk ... I know it will take just a hill or two to get me out of it. Maybe this is why depression is such a common problem? Most of us sit on our asses all day long. Since I'm doing the very stressful work of starting a company without the benefit of large sums of OPM ... I also have paid attention to my relationships. That is I've WORKED at them. Having a wife who truly enjoys being with me ... makes the current lack of money a heck of a lot more tolerable. I wouldn't trade this for the fancy cars and resturants I used to enjoy. The thing is, when I had the 600 sq-ft glass corner office and the regular 5k take-home every 2 weeks ... my personal life was a shambles. So go figure ... there's more important things than money. Who would have guessed? Name: Email: Date: Mon May 21 12:52:10 2001 Comment: Victor Frankl's "Man's Search for Meaning" Matthew, read it before you make those pronouncements. Sure, some holocaust survivors are very healthy, they gained something from the experience. Often, though, the path to realizing that gain was riddled with guilt, shame, self loathng, questioning the value of life and a whole range of in betweens. Often, one of the reasons that some did survive was because they DID sweat the small stuff. A pair of shoes without holes meant less chance of frostbitten feet or worse, a sure ticket to the gas chambers, the ovens or one of the many abbatoirs where vivisection was performed. Name: Dr. Phil Email: Date: Mon May 21 12:41:36 2001 Comment: ?Feminized,? NOT to be confused with effeminate, i.e. men who THINK the way women think, and think it's progress. The original meaning of Macho is simply: male. The two main qualities are personified by the toreador: a) overcome fear, b) show grace under fire (stress). Name: Matthew Saroff Email: msaroff@pobox.com Date: Mon May 21 12:33:45 2001 Comment: There are two issues in mental health, the mentally ill, and the "worried well". I will limit myself to the second group. People feel badly about their lives because it is logical response to their lives. They are on 24/7 liable to be let go on 5 minutes notice, and they can't really determine what they actually produce. To quote the character from city slickers who sold ad time on a radio station, "I'm really selling nothing". If your life sucks, you are SUPPOSED to feel like crap. On a related note, an extensive survey was done on Holocaust survivors mental health, and it was determined that they were significantly more healthy than the general population. There are two possible reasons for this: The weak did not make it. They had learned not to sweat the small stuff. When you are being slowly starved to death by sadistic camp guards, you tend not to worry about who has the better shoes. Too many people dwell on every slight real and imagined, and end up in therapy/on meds. Name: Email: Date: Mon May 21 12:31:21 2001 Comment: Masterpo, There are times when even people who think that therapy might be a good idea "for other people, maybe, but not for me" get so knotted up inside that they seek help, too. Someone earlier mentioned cognitive therapy. One of the interesting things I found in David Burns' book are short descriptions of people - some very successful people or people with everything going for them - who were hopeless and miserable. These are among the people who need therapy. So the short response to your comment is: depression, OCD, phobias call for treatment if the person wants to get better. Hangnails, normal anxieties about love, work, finances may just call for a friend's ear. Sometimes a person needs help in separating things out into the two classes, so often therapy is useful there as well. Name: Email: Date: Mon May 21 12:20:47 2001 Comment: Dr.Phil. . . I don't know if "feminization" is really accurate, just because it's usually directed at boys by teachers and moms. . . who are usually acting a predetermined role as "caregivers". . . the scripted "tension - attention seeking" cycle may be partially correct. I also think that this has something to do with eating disorders, advertising, creating insecurity, manufaxturing demand, as a matter of fact, dr. phil, I seem to remember that you argued against me with some vehemence when I postulated it. . . Name: NoPriors Email: Date: Mon May 21 12:04:02 2001 Comment: Here's your pill for thought today: The root cause of human suffering is human desire. Name: MasterPo Email: Date: Mon May 21 11:57:20 2001 Comment: Who's life is without problems? Whether real problesm or perceived problems, no one lifes a care-free life successful life (and hasn't dropped out of modern life). The dilemma is, while the problems have always been there, today people are more likely to run to their therapist or doctor and demand a pill. Name: Dr. Phil Email: Date: Mon May 21 11:40:52 2001 Comment: McLuhan determined that media are extensions of the human nervous system. Today?s television delivers anxious audiences for advertisers to calm. It revs up our anxiety level every 10-minutes or so over some scripted conflict ?factual or fictional- then, breaks to commercial. The idea is to create a soothing association in our minds with that commercial product whenever we feel stressed: e.g., comfort foods. Children and women ?who watch the most tv- are most affected. They internalize the anxiety rhythm and regularly seek attention, comfort, or assurances --every ten minutes or so. This social pattern is most apparent in theater presentations and concerts where audiences become fidgety after ten minutes of performance, and in our schools where boys are being increasingly misdiagnosed as ADD kids by teachers blessed out on Prozac who tolerate no challenge to their authority and peace of mind. This corrective policy aimed at boys in their formative years ?directed by drugged down moms and school marms, leads to what I see as the feminization of American society. If we drug tested teachers --targeting antidepressants-- we?d probably lose over half of the teaching force Name: Linder Email: aby_cat@yahoo.com Date: Mon May 21 11:30:37 2001 Comment: Although I think a lot of what you say has merit, some people with lifelong problems really do need help sorting it all out. I'm a big fan of cognitive therapy - it's short term and teaches you how to stop dating jerks, working for assholes and letting your screwed-up parents push you around. More importantly, you learn how to take responsibility for your actions (or inactions). Drugs can be a valuable interim crutch but generally not the way to go long-term. Ditto conventional psychotherapy. I'm convinced that you would feel worse after talking about your problems every week, for 200 per 50-minute session, just to have some jerk say "what do YOU think?" after you spill your guts for 45 minutes and ask for advice. Conversely, a cognitive therapist will tell you exactly what he or she thinks. Name: meds Email: Date: Mon May 21 11:22:03 2001 Comment: To Former Paxil Junkie : Anti-depressants don't come without a price. I too have suffered from various side-effects, including many of those you describe. However, that's why you need to experiement and find the one that best fits your brain chemistry. For ex: I tried Celexa, Wellbutrin, and Ritalin to no avail until I tried Prozac. For the better part of a year, Prozac offered hope. I started feeling much better, was able to date, etc. Unfortunately, with time, Prozac no longer offered hope and increased dosages only exacerbated side-effects. Most recently, I've been trying Serzone and so far, it's working ok with minimal side-effects. Having experimented with many meds over the last 2 years and seeing many specialists, I've learned that there's no one "right" med. Everyone is different. Also be aware that many "starter" dosages are too high for most people. If you 1/2 or even 1/4 the recommended dosages, you'll probably still enjoy the benefit of the particular drug w/o many of the side-effects. As for their addictive qualities, it really depends on the drug, the dosage, and the length of time you took it. Most of these meds aren't addictive but psychologically habbit forming (ala marijuana). For ex: I went cold turkey with Prozac to no ill effect. However, some drugs do require one to taper off slowly lest they suffer some serious side-effects. Word of advice: don't go to your regular doctor for a prescription to an anti-depressant. See a specialist -- be it a Psychatrist or Psychopharmocologist. These folks know the effects/side-effects of each med intimately and can really best help you find one that works. Name: Blake Email: Date: Mon May 21 11:18:31 2001 Comment: Moved to Europe (northern Italy) a few months ago and can't believe the difference in life style and attitude. I think the old stereotype of family first, work second is reason more people are more at peace here. The only real substance abuse I see is tobacco and caffeine. Working in DC was a great ride, but I'm glad this opportunity came. It is very easy to assimilate into one's environment over time, and this is why more people have nervous breakdowns, drug their kids, work themselves silly and medicate where I used to live than where I'm living now. I love the states, and want to return eventually, but this move has made me realize that spending more time with my family makes me want to spend more time with my family. I used to drink a lot more in the states, I actually felt like I needed it. Not the same here. You're right, it's the circle you're in. Name: Email: Date: Mon May 21 11:14:52 2001 Comment: fpj. . . >---I was there because there was this huge gap between the person others expected me to be and the person I really was. Actually, it may have been the person you perceived others wanted you to be and the person you thought you that you were or are. have a pint. Name: Former Paxil Junkie Email: Date: Mon May 21 11:07:44 2001 Comment: The untold story here is how dangerous anti-depressants are, especially when you try to get off them. They are addictive, and you do have withdrawal symptoms. Back in 1996, I saw a therapist for depression and had Paxil prescribed. It did lift me out of my dark moods, but it came with a steep price---greatly reduced sex drive, sleep problems, weight gain, lethargy, etc. I was a mess. When I tried to give it up, things got worse. I got very paranoid (I was convinced my business partners were out to screw me, for example), would break into crying jags for no reason, and wound up more depressed than before. Giving up coke was EASY compared to giving up Paxil! There are web sites documenting similar experiences others have had with Paxil, Prozac, and various other anti-depressants. The pharmaceutical industry has done a marvelous job of marketing these drugs as safe, but the fact is they work by screwing around with your brain chemistry, and the results are often unpredictable from individual to individual. Yet HMOs and other cost-containment health plans love anti-depressants because it's faster and cheaper to prescribe pills instead of doing lengthy therapy. Be careful when someone wants to write a prescription for something like Paxil---there are no shortcuts to dealing with your problems, nor are there any easy, painless ways to resolve them. Most people in therapy are like me---I was there because there was this huge gap between the person others expected me to be and the person I really was. Now I am being the person I really am, instead of the person others want me to be or the person who is statistically "normal." And while I'm disappointing others by being myself, I'm not disappointing myself. I don't think you need anger so much as you need indifference to the demands and expectations of others. Name: Email: Date: Mon May 21 11:06:17 2001 Comment: Does everyone here think that all people who consider suicide are irrational? Since we are unable to map the cognitive process as a logical progression from point x to point y (in conciousness) I would say that, suicide's being a choice, for some people the choice is logical. I AM NOT ADVOCATING SUICIDE, merely questioning society's definition and concensus concerning what is rational or irrational. Since the choices involved are normative, it's difficult to say, no? Suicide could actually be considered either the ultimate Neitzschean act of will to power or the antithesis of will to power as will to death? will to surrender? Name: HoppedUp Email: Date: Mon May 21 10:36:07 2001 Comment: Damn Straight. I couldn't have said this better. Name: steve gilliard Email: sgilliard@netslaves.com Date: Mon May 21 10:32:04 2001 Comment: There is a vast and complete difference between being a depressive person and being depressed. Is Prozac overpresecribed? Sure. Do too many people rely on therapy as a crutch? Sure. But both MAOI's and therapy have saved lives. The singer and writer Suzannah McCorkle killed herself on Saturday. Jumped right out the window and landed on the sidewalk. Was thoughful enough to stick a couple of notes in her pocket. Don't you think her friends wish she had decided to get some help? Now, my father worked with the seriously mentally ill for 10 years. The kind of deeply disturbed people who were in a locked psychiatric ward and had to be doped up on Thorazine to function daily. Let's not confuse the two. There are people who are probably resorting to therapy to solve problems which are less than serious. They need the validation and support for various non-medical reasons. But these drugs allow people to have normal lives. Therapy allows people to feel better. Unlike Woody Allen, therapy usually lasts a couple of years at most, so do most of the drugs. They're there to help people function. I know people who have been helped from serious, serious biochemical problems because of the availability of these drugs and therapy. What did most people do before these drugs? Uh. committ suicide. Yes, people do abuse them, but for the most part they save lives, prevent suicides, allow people to function better. Not everyone who seems to be casual about their therapy is casual. You don't know what people have lived through in their lives. Just because they may seem glib, doesn't mean they're glib in their sessions. Not everyone can solve their mental health issues. When I was 12, two of my neighbors jumped off the roof of my apartment building in the span of two weeks. That was a hell of a thing. Ever since then, I've thought getting help was a good idea. Name: Geoff Depew Email: Bob_ten@hotmail.com Date: Mon May 21 10:19:35 2001 Comment: Just remember: We're all FINE. Fucked-up, Insecure, Neurotic and Emotional. This has been your completely screwed up acronym of the day. Name: Todd Email: spam@spam.com Date: Mon May 21 09:51:39 2001 Comment: >They were trying to stay sheltered and fed. >We have it too easy to remember what real >struggle really is. Isn't this the challenge of the next evolutionary step for humanity? What are we after we can feed and shelter ourselves? Looking at people like kings and the very rich doesn't give one much confidence we can solve this problem. I fear for most people once the basics are satisfied there's not much left, thus the WWF and drugs. Name: FUBAR Email: Date: Mon May 21 09:50:27 2001 Comment: Imagine if Dostoyevsky had had access to Prozac. Or Muddy Waters had a therapist. "Why do you sing such sad songs, McKinley?" Name: Dave Email: Date: Mon May 21 09:40:13 2001 Comment: Bill, take a page from your own book, and follow the money. Assume you work for an employer with good health and prescription coverage. Most HMOs will pay only for the first few visits to a psychotherapist before the therapist has to justify further visits. Correction, the insurer never pays more than half the usual and customary charges, versus all but, say, 5 or 10 for any other doctor's office visits. If the HMO doesn't like the therapist's justification for further treatment, the insurer may just decline to reimburse for further visits that year. Or it may allow so many additional visits, like the yutz at the end of the phone can really decide what any given patient needs. So, someone's depressed. They find a therapist and begin talking, maybe weekly. After the first four visits the therapist has to justify further visits. Clearly, the patient isn't suicidal, or s/he would be in-patient and that would be covered. So it's not immediately life and death, but the patient might not be fully functional, might be miserable, and the therapist may believe that non-drug treatments, like cognitive therapy, could pay off in this case. Maybe the