To Valerie, Chris, James and every single other former dot-com employee
(and the journalists that interviewed them) that received their pink
sweater and are now drinking French coffee and climbing rocks in lieu
of searching the want ads, it's time to STFU. While the media paints a
picture that every goateed former 'net project manager and biz-dev
huckster lives in Fantasyland and had millions stashed away from the
stock options, here's the reality: most of us are working, searching
for a new job, recovering, or trying to do something other than "wonder
what went wrong."
What did go wrong? We watched VCs pump millions of dollars into
companies that were struggling to find good managers and decent revenue
streams. To get bodies, they hired everyone they could get -
receptionists at 60,000 per year, project managers whose previous
business experience was Junior Achievement in high school, and anyone
that could spell H-T-M-L.
Everyone saw dollars, stock options, free candy and cases of cokes,
and thought it was Disneyland. Somewhere along the line, investors
stopped seeing companies that were cool and saw places that burned a
lot of cash fast spending it on goatees, BMW leases, gold-plated
toilets, and flights on
the Concorde. While we were all in the fantasy world, someone pulled
the plug.
Damn right, it should have been pulled, too.
---
This is for the irresponsible journalists I told to STFU:
What was the typical "Holy shit, I got laid off, what do I do now" experience?
I don't know, because I don't figure myself as typical I'll relate
mine, since the reporters are only interested in those that involve
cruises to the Bahamas and spending days slacking, Gen-X style. Think
of me as Cake, singing "Sad songs and waltzes aren't selling this
year," because this is the stuff they won't print. It's boring, but
it's our reality.
My significant other and I got laid off from the same dot-com
sometime in February. It was the second major layoff for the company,
ironic because they still are still flush with cash from a second
offering. We knew it was coming, but when the day came, it still seemed
surreal. Where was Rod Serling when we needed him?
After picking up our last check, we took a break and went down to
International House of Pancakes for an inexpensive breakfast. We were
actually glad to be let go, because it removed a lot of stress from our
lives. I took a well-needed nap that afternoon she spent her day
working in the garden.
The next day, we started looking.
And looking.
And looking.
And looking some more.
The ads all looked the same. DICE was listing the same Rydek job
day after day - and it's still there, in May. I talked to several
recruiters, most of whom were repeating some kind of party line: "Well,
there's not really
anything out there that's an exact fit, but do you program in Perl?"
(Did I mention I'm a Product Manager?)
The interviews we went on meant meeting with managers that wanted
to take advantage to the situation ("Uh, how's 20 bucks an hour sound,
and could you commute to our office in Barstow from Orange County? Or
how about relocating
to Detroit, but you pay the moving costs?"). Other interviews were just
a bad fit ("But, really, do you program in Perl?").
Note: I've been to Detroit. Detroit sucks. Let's move on.
I was one of the lucky ones - I didn't eat into my severance pay,
was unemployed for no more than two weeks. Some of the people I worked
with are still unemployed.
Work meant a well-paying gig out of town, and when I came back a
new job was waiting for me. Out of town meant living 2,000 miles away
from my significant other, but at the time, money was money, and I suck
at rock climbing. My new position here at home isn't the position we
would dream
about during the heydays of, oh, a year ago, but it works. I like the
environment, and enjoy the fact they don't subscribe to the "60 hours a
week or we die" attitude.
It's weird - unlike some of my other jobs, I'm not emotionally
attached to this one I could be working as a bus driver, as far as I'm
concerned.
My significant other also found work - at a dying dot-com. She
doesn't know when the last paycheck could be and she's generally
uncomfortable with the situation. Hopefully, the market will pick up,
but at least we can take solace that we're having a life that's much
better than some of our friends, and many of the people that will be
reading this article.
---
I can't fathom the attitude that some still in pink I have. For
every Valerie Hoecke that had enough money for six months so she can
take yoga classes three days a week (the other two were for - get this
- thinking days), there's a QA person or a Customer Support Specialist
that was at the
bottom of the dot-com food chain, and when the checks ran out, so did
the money.
For the Nathan Shedroff's of the world who used the article as a
shameless plug for their new books ("It's Experience Design, 24.95 at
Amazon") there's a designer just out of school that's probably
surviving designing business cards for people that happen to walk into
the Kinko's over in San
Francisco's Sunset District - so he can pay for Shedroff's book.
For many of the people in the article, they have never experienced
real pain, and think that well paying jobs are a god-given right.
I'm Gen-X, and I definitely remember 1992 in California. Decent
paying jobs were hard to come by. The best job I could get was about 10
an hour, and I worked hard to move my career along. I worked at lousy
jobs - think graphic artist, 4pm to 12am, run the copy machine, office
in Compton - and with even worse bosses, but I took pride in knowing I
was a productive member of society. I raised in a blue-collar
household, and that meant that you worked hard for a day's pay. I feel
very, very lucky to have what I
have.
During that time, I got laid off twice, and yet I never took an
unemployment check. I sure as hell didn't think of taking of rock
climbing, and I spend most of my free time learning to improve my
skills.
For all those ex-dot commers, get a clue. Don't use this time to
take a nuevo-yoga class to figure out your inner self use it to get
some skills other than looking good so we don't repeat this travesty
again. Learn programming,
and project management, and what it takes to run a business.
Most of you did a lousy job at it this time, and if you get another chance, you aren't going to want to fuck it up again.
Next time you won't have the freedom to go rock climbing.
Name: eeeck
Email: Date: Wed Jun 13 11:26:13 2001
Comment:
They probably had to look damn hard to find dot-commers who could be
that cavalier. In my own management role at one, I oversaw four rounds
of layoffs before getting canned myself everyone got a flat 2 weeks of
severance.
While there were a couple people who were looking forward to
kicking back and collecting an unemployment check along with some help
from mom and dad, most people were freaking out about having theirs
lives disrupted - worrying about paying for weddings and babies on the
way, getting kicked out of the country due to visa issues, etc.
As for myself, I was relatively sanguine but only because I've been
laid off before and am now complete fcking paranoid. I continued to
freelance on the sly the whole time I was at a dot-com because I felt
they didn't look to stable and paid off every debt I had. When I
started to see the early signs of things going south - close to a year
before I got laid off - I went into overtime and basically worked two
jobs. I also delayed buying an apartment for the umpteenth time and
still live in the same cruddy apartment I moved into after graduate
school.
The lesson? There's no free ride, people, and even the few people
who got a lucky break on options don't have it so great. Even though I
saved enough to take off a few months, I got my a back into another job
(at a reduced salary at that) as soon as I could, and when it's hiring
time people like me aren't too likely to put people who've been
breezing around Europe at the top of the list. They'll come back from
their extended vacations, all the jobs will be taken, and upper
management will use articles like this one to justify treating their
workers like crap. Same ol' same ol', if you ask me.
Name: SonOfFlySqat
Email: Date: Fri May 18 20:02:53 2001
Comment:
+ cohesive, integrated, TEAM, absent of the (baggage) sdaehtihs ass
bandit robbin highwaymen might, just might, build something which is
more than just lining the pockets of a few scumbags.
But you gotta ask/admit the scumbags pulled a good one over?
Name: SonOfFlySqat
Email: Date: Fri May 18 19:51:51 2001
Comment: hell DNS via some ISPs across the pond sux tonight.
The Other Cheek.
No Probs. Figured that was what many people here were getting at.
People who don't get that it takes a talented team to do ...
whatever ... the name being 'talented' the value being 'experienced' vs
the name being 'dotcom' the value being 'Gold Rush Syndrome Sufferers'
have surly had all the shocks they can stomach. Nah, I don't believe
that for a second :-P
Name: Profitable Content Site
Email: Date: Fri May 18 15:40:07 2001
Comment:
Matt Drudge, briefme.com, Fuckedcompany.com, he list of profitable
conent sites goes on and on. Most of them are small operations with the
marketing savy to gain attention, advertisers and to keep overhead low.
You may not have heard of them because they don't piss their money away
on billboards and TV ads.
The reason so many dotcoms failed is that they had no marketing or
management vision or were too reliant on some mediocre techology to
provide a killer app which would allow them all to quit working by the
time they were 30.
Let's face, at this point Web technlogy is commoditized. And if
HTML and PERL programmers think they are immune from layoffs, they are
kidding themselves.
The future is not phony rhetoric, "new economy" gibberish or fashion statements.
No.
It's a small group (1-5 people) focused entirely on leveraging the
power of techology to create a streamlined and eficient business, not
one bloated with half-educated, fashion conscious 20 somethings that join a company expecting to be bought free beer every Friday.
I remember one girl who quit a profitable offline company to work
for a "dotcom", who lectured me how the company she was leaving was
"doing it wrong" and needed to have a "social club" and to raise her
base salary. She now makes 1/2 what she made with the offline company
while working for a tottering dotcom (which doesn't support her
alcoholism either, it turns out).
Name: The Other Cheek
Email: Date: Fri May 18 15:03:21 2001
Comment: >ANYTHING and everything placed between HTML tags or stored in a database (to a programmer?) is, yup, CONTENT.
Thanks, FlySwat. That's exactly the point I was trying to make in my previous posts.
Name: FlySwat
Email: Date: Fri May 18 14:35:45 2001
Comment:
I'm glad I gave you a good laugh today, because if your paycheck is
tied in some way to content you're not going to be laughing very much
in the months ahead.<<
I wasn't laughing, I was crying tears (for me, in case you're right
-- Thankfully your not, never will be). Sure my pay check is tied to
content. Everybody who is doing anything with a website is tied to
content. However, I don't personally do content. I guess I kinda enable
content.
I might be easier if you started thinking beyond: News Sites are
content sites and everybody publishing to the web is a dot com
(thankfully you're wrong again).
In fact (to anyone who doesn't do content), ANYTHING and everything
placed between HTML tags or stored in a database (to a programmer?) is,
yup, CONTENT. Even page Titles.
Geeee, I would be sooooo bored if I had to invent too many of them
words. Luckily I don''t have to. We have specialists to do that,
thankfully, allowing us to get on with the things we do.
Believe it or not, I have friends who are paid to produce 'silly
things' like on-line learning/training materials, etc, etc ad
infinitum. These courses are sold to businesses because, to mention
just one benefit, it works out less expensive than bring a
person/people (in body) on-site, to deliver training.
Glad I don't write on-line course materials (yet - I might have
been 'watching' and might have a plan?), though I'm qualified to do it,
-- that's CONTENT.
Believe it or not, one of my relatives is paid to prepare material
used to populate the backend database for the on-line store of an
'established mail-order' clothing catalog company, which, last time I
heard (bet it's more now) was taking in excess of 100k a week (they've
only had their current shop front up for about a year), and operating
this division of the business at a profit, unlike Amazon.
>>Name me one content-related site that's making money. Just
one out of the thousands of the web. You can't, because there aren't
any. Even the NY Times and Wall Street Journal aren't making money off
the content on their web sites<<
www.jdwilliam .... nah, better not!
The reason NY Times is not making any profit is cos they had no
fucking business (being on the web) idea or implementation, thereof,
which would make money on the web. If you start putting your print
material, which you usually sell, on the web, for free ... well any
dunce is gonna see what is going to happen(?), surely(?). Charging
later on won't work -- peeps will simply piss off to find something
else free. It's what they expect and will continue to do so until this
kind of free stuff is gone, gone, gone.
Now I'm laughing:
But for a real laugh check out:
http://bofh.ntk.net/Bastard.html
You're dead right, it's gonna get worse, a lot worse, probably not
for me though cos I is not interested in "dot coms", never have been,
never will be. As the song goes ... It can only get better ...
>>And wives don't like to shag guys out of work---like I said, the news will only get a lot worse<<
Very true, I imagine!
>>Name me one content-related site that's making money. Just one out of the thousands of the web.<<
It's
Name: The Other Cheek
Email: Date: Fri May 18 11:08:07 2001
Comment: People pay for content in the form of books, magazines,
pay-per-view, phone sex (and astrology), CDs, etc. They will,
eventually, pay for content online. You might not want to believe it,
but it will be so. Has to be. Otherwise, there will soon be no
companies willing or able to put content online -- who wants to start a
company knowing (s)he is going to go bankrupt sooner or later?
The New York Times and Wall Street Jounral's Web sites -- which
already benefit enormously from the cost savings inherent in recylcing
content from their print editions -- could be profitable today
if they raised their subscription rates. I now pay 29.00/year to access
WSJ online because I subscribe to the print edition (if I didn't, my
online subscription would be 49.00/year). Considering that the cost to
renew a newsweekly subscription is something like 59.00 per year, I
would pay at least that much to access WSJ daily.
And as far as XP goes, what the book and site say are one thing,
but I'm telling you how it's being implemented in the world. Wouldn't
be the first time the intent and the implementation are right and left.
NTL, right or wrong in the name of XP design and requirements
gathering is going out the window. Maybe some see it as a last gasp
hope. Others maybe see it as a way to justify poor planning and not
making the hard decisions. Regardless of of XP was supposed to
represent, this is how it's being implemented.
Name: MasterPo
Email: Date: Fri May 18 10:54:34 2001
Comment:
Name: MasterPo
Email: Date: Fri May 18 10:54:34 2001
Comment:
Spoken like a true project "manager" with his head up his ass (i.e., the typical PM)...
You obviously don't have a clue about what Extreme programming is
or how to implement it in an organization. before talking about XP,
look at http://www.extremeprogramming.org/ first or STFU.
Name: MasterPo
Email: Date: Fri May 18 10:09:30 2001
Comment: Investors - There is something to be said for the old saying "Hire
people smarter than yourself." If every investor had to know and
understand completely every facit of the product the company made then
few would ever invest. How can Joe-investor understand engineering or
physics or advanced math? Image if Jobs and Waz need to completely
explain the function of the Apple inorder to get investors. They would
never have gotten backing. I agree the investor needs to do his/her
homework. But at some point they have to take some trust in the product
developers. Of course trusting a 22 y/o with just a freshly minted MBA
and no experience with tens of millions of dollars is crazy too.
Project Managers - I agree many PM's don't knwo thier ass from
thier elbow. However, many more execs don't know how to utilize PM's
what a PM is really supposed to do. I've seen PM's do everything from
program to write specs to install systems to training. As the sayin
goes, if you're title is Manager and you are reviewed on other skills
and accomplishments other than just managing then you're not a real
manager.
To Perl Developer - Ever read the book "Extreme Programming"? If
not, get it! It's the new "Bible" of softwarer development. In a nut
shell it says analysis and design are BS, the end users have no place
in designing a system and you can never hope to quantify the
requirements so don't even try. My former employer adopted this
approach and my current employer just hired a CTO imported from CA who
lives by this motto. And you wonder how crappy systems get created....
Name: bongwater
Email: Date: Fri May 18 09:35:32 2001
Comment: To Perl Developer:
I was a Project Manager for most of my 6 year dot com career and
while I agree to some extent with your comment that many so-called PMs
knew nothing and usually detracted from the production process, I
wasn't one of them!
1) I never made a bloated salary! Yes, I made enough to live on but
not much more than that. As many of us learned, how much you made in
this biz was often more related to who you knew (and blew) and timing
than your actual skills or qualifications.
2) I actually did my job well. Unlike many of my peers, I actually
could "talk the talk" and "walk the walk" and that included a firm
understanding of graphics design and backend work. If I didn't know
something, I'd keep my mouth shut and defer it the proper people.
Name: Carl Guderian
Email:carlg@vermilion-sands.com Date: Fri May 18 09:24:05 2001
Comment:
Finally read that article. "Breathtakingly fatuous" is a phrase that
comes to mind. You guys scooped the Washpost with that artical 2 weeks
agao with Jerry the ex-dotcommer cum-shipping loader. Like The Onion,
but more deadpan. A tip o' the lynch lid!
Name: Queenie
Email: Date: Fri May 18 01:07:59 2001
Comment: SG - well spoken (or rather, written).
Finally got a chance to read the said article mentioned above. What
a crock o' sh-- (can i say that here?). Someone needs to give the
"journalist" a reality check.
Though i'm still gainfully employed (writer/designer - thank you
very much, R. Bytes), i know the reality of dot-com crashburn is not
such for most folks. me thinks such crap misleads the non-dc folks into
thinking we're just a bunch of snotty leaches who sucked off the naive
investors and living the high-life.
sorry. this thread seemed to have gone in a diff. direction, but the article really irked me...
Name: steve gilliard
Email:sgilliard@netslaves.com Date: Fri May 18 00:21:21 2001
Comment: Mr. Insightful,
You're wrong, since you repeatedly say that neither the Times or
WSJ makes money. So what would make them profitable in the future?
The problem is not that content can't make a profit, it can. It's
that the ad support levels don't exist. You need better, more effective
ads to make money.
The pay for content web is a wet dream which isn't going to happen.
Why? Not enough disposable income. Web sites will make money like
magazines, by selling ads. The reason that most haven't so far is the
size of the company. Salon made 8 million dollars. Which is a good
thing. The problem was that it spent 10m on content alone.
The money is there for the lean and nimble who deliver a needed
product. It isn't there for a 400 person staff or even a 25 person
staff.
The rule is simple: 1m page views pays for 20 people. You can do it on even reduced ad rates.
You're also dead wrong about medicine. Most doctors do not tell you
the worst case scenario. Most chronically ill people HAVE to do their
own research. There are entire networks of people who do their own
research on hundreds of people.
Dr, Koop and WebMD, had good information but bloated staffs tied to going public without profits.
People wouldn't pay for Slate because much of the writing sucked,
as Salon is finding out as well. Not because the model was bad
inherently. Somehow Phil Kaplan is making 70K a month and he's not
going to be alone for long.
Most of the content online was pathetically amateur and spoke to no
audience. Smoking Gun got bought, so did Slashdot, but AICN makes
money. Stile makes money. It can be done through a variety of means.
Look at TV, AOL/Time Warner basically challenged the local affliates and O-O's with cheap local news. It can be done.
If you wanted a bet on which kinds of topics will eventually work,
I think the leading contenders are a good sex site, a woman's magazine
which is the anti-Kozmo and a national sports daily. all areas where
print fails badly.
But shit like TheMan.com, and the hundreds of other, juvenile sites.....gone.
Name: Mr. Insightful
Email: Date: Thu May 17 23:33:35 2001
Comment:
Other Cheek,
People like you have made a lot of VCs very rich by either
investing your money in their fool IPOs or agreeing to work cheaply in
return for bogus stock options.
If I had a doctor who couldn't give me a straight answer about a
medical condition I had or explain it clearly, I wouldn't go to the
web. I'd either badger him constantly, especially if my life was on the
line, or find another doctor.
It's funny that you use a medical site as an example. Doctor Koop's
site and Web MD are raking in the money, aren't they? Will you explain
to me how such sites will ever turn a profit? Do you think people will
pay to get information they can get free from their doctor? Stop
kidding yourself.
You said "The party is over for Web sites producing content that is
not strongly branded, extremely compelling or "must-have" useful."
Doesn't that describe the NY Times and Wall Street Journal? How come
they're not making money? You are only fooling yourself when you repeat
that MBA Speak.
You said "Just because no stand-alone content site has achieved
profitability yet doesn't mean none of them never will." My question
remains the same: how and when? A few eventually will. I would pay now
for the NY Times site if they charged for it. But the other 99% won't
and the people working there are not going to have jobs. Slate proved
back in 1998 that people will not pay for content from non-established
sources on the web. The content winners will be companies, like the NY
Times and WSJ, that already have established reputations for value and
credibility through print.
You have to be another content person who doesn't want to believe
the party is over. It is. Get ready to get a real job where you have to
work during the day.
Name: Reality bytes
Email: Date: Thu May 17 23:17:28 2001
Comment:
The argument between Mr. Insightful and The Other Cheek is moot. The
fact is, most competent techies I know continue to be gainfully
employed, while the content people and artsy types are having problems
making a living in this business.
The marketplace has spoken. Accept it.
Name: The Other Cheek
Email: Date: Thu May 17 22:44:15 2001
Comment:
I forgot to put my name to the post directed to Mr. Insightful. (Though
he'd probably recognize my "bedazzled" naivite, I'm sure.)
Name: Email: Date: Thu May 17 22:42:32 2001
Comment: Mr. Insightful: The party is over for Web sites producing content
that is not strongly branded, extremely compelling or "must-have"
useful. The party is also over for Web users who think they will
continue to get all manner of content for free.
Suppose, heaven forbid, you or a member of your family were
diagnosed with a rare cancer and everything the doctor said about the
condition and its treatment was a blur. Wouldn you rather get
information from a Web site that accurately (i.e., experienced medical
journalists) and objectively (i.e., not a pharmaceutical marketing
site) explains the course of the disease, the prognosis and the
risk/benefit ratio between surgery, chemo or radiation? OR would you
rather wade through dozens of medical journals (online or paper,
doesn't matter) trying to find and deciper research papers on these
issues? Of course the former. Now, what's the convenience of not having
to search the archives of 25 different oncology journals worth to you?
What about the user-friendliness of not having to look up every third
word in a medical dictionary? Some day, a health/medical CONTENT site
will hit the magic price point. And that's the day that particular
content site will find its P2P.
Just because no stand-alone content site has achieved profitability yet doesn't mean none of them never will.
Name: Mr. Insightful
Email: Date: Thu May 17 22:19:07 2001
Comment:
The Other Cheek,
You're failing to make the distinction between sites whose primary
"product" is content and those that add content to support selling and
brokering functions. By your excessively broad definition, General
Motors, Carnival Cruise Lines, and Microsoft are in the content
business because they supply brochures, manuals, ads, etc. describing
their products. They're not---content is simply a small fraction of
their total activities, and is actually a cost of doing business
instead of a source of profit.
You're still bedazzled by technohype and never stop to ask if
anyone really needs content or a service, of if someone will actually
pay for it. "A boating forecast delivered to your Web-enabled cellphone
just as you're about to set sail" is a way to make money? How? The
Coast Guard offers them free on channel 16 of the marine radio all
boats have today. "It's also photos, videos, audio, forums and
polls/surveys." Again, who pays for this now? Would you?
My challenge is still out there: show me one site whose product is
content---like c/net, Salon, the NY Times on-line, or even
netslaves---that's making money. Arguably, the only ones out there
doing so is something like Yahoo, but even it is feeling the pain of
the collapse of the banner ad market.
Let me guess---you're one of those "content specialists" who doesn't want to believe the party's over, right?
Name: Perl Developer
Email: Date: Thu May 17 22:12:51 2001
Comment: Joe Calico , bongwater, and MasterPo:
The fact is, I am right and you are wrong. Anybody who has worked
for dot coms in the last 3-4 years knows that the typical new media
firm had a bloated, non-essential middle management layer of
non-technical "project managers" who added absolutely no value to the
process...in fact, they tended to interfere with the efficient
production of web sites by getting in the way of the people who did the
actual work (programmers, creative types, etc.) with their stupid,
inane questions and endless meetings...Additionally, they depleted
precious budget with their bloated salaries and perks.
I continue to maintain that it is a good thing to see these
non-technical middle managers run out of the business with their tails
between their legs! It is karma, poetic justice.
Name: Enough Already
Email: Date: Thu May 17 21:55:54 2001
Comment: What I want.........
Is a package like Shaheen scammed out of Webvan. 375k/year for the rest of his life. Dayummmmm!!!
Name: The Other Cheek
Email: Date: Thu May 17 21:39:30 2001
Comment: Mr. Insightful: What is content, exactly? It's product descriptions
on auction and B2B and B2C e-commerce sites, it's analysis that turns
otherwise arcane data (medical research, financial statements, etc.)
into informative and user-friendly articles, it's a map delivered to
your telematics-equipped car when you're lost, and it's a boating
forecast delivered to your Web-enabled cellphone just as you're about
to set sail. It's also photos, videos, audio, forums and polls/surveys.
Where do you think all this content comes from? The Content Fairy?
My point is, all sites are "content-related." Whether a site makes
money depends in part on whether the content adds enough value to
justify enough consumers paying to access it or enough advertisers
paying to reach consumers who accesses it to create a sustainable
revenue stream (and, profits, if the company's burn rate isn't insane).
Name: Mr. Insightful
Email: Date: Thu May 17 19:49:38 2001
Comment:
Flyswat,
No, I'm not kidding.
Name me one content-related site that's making money. Just one out
of the thousands of the web. You can't, because there aren't any. Even
the NY Times and Wall Street Journal aren't making money off the
content on their web sites. What does that tell you?
Money today is being made on the web by selling stuff (Amazon,
etc.) or facilitating transactions (eBay, Travelocity, etc.). Those two
models---stores and brokerages---are where the money will be, at least
until most people have DSL-speed access so more interesting content,
like music or video, can be delivered. But at this time there is no
money to be made in content, whether ad-supported or subscription (even
the WSJ's subscription model can't keep their site from being a money
loser).
If you don't believe me, then just name one content site that's making money---just one.
I'm glad I gave you a good laugh today, because if your paycheck is
tied in some way to content you're not going to be laughing very much
in the months ahead. And wives don't like to shag guys out of
work---like I said, the news will only get a lot worse.
Name: HarkenUp
Email: Date: Thu May 17 19:44:21 2001
Comment: Mr. Insightful writes Excuse me, did they hold a pistol to the heads of the suckers who bought their stock?
I agree with your analysis. But concerning the cited point, I am troubled by this question:
Pensions Invested in Mutual funds. Weren?t these folks really used and abluesed?
Name: FlySwat
Email: Date: Thu May 17 18:59:46 2001
Comment: Mr. Insightful
>>The rest of the dot-com brigade---the business development
managers, the relationship managers, the content engineers, the
affinity marketing specialists, etc. etc.---are, as Pud might say on
his site, fucked.
You kiddin', right?
Little point in developing a neato 3 tier, Servlet -- JDBC -- DB2
based content management tool for no fucking business, with no fucking
customers (relationship) and, even better (since you need content to
amuse customers), no fucking content. Yer right the programmers are gonna write the content for the
site owner, attract customers, and 'write and present the 5-year
stategic business plan to the investors/financiers'.
Wah, I've just sprayed beer all over one of my monitors (always
turn to the right before opening mouth full of beer) and tears are
rolling down my cheeks (but-crack).
Thanks for this. Where's the wife. Time for a shag!
Name: Mr. Insightful
Email: Date: Thu May 17 18:56:47 2001
Comment:
A couple of minor disagreements, Steve.
If those companies really had their shit together in the first
place, they wouldn't have existed at all. Most of the ideas were
inherently stupid and had no chance whatsoever of succeeding, as you
have pointed out in your astute analysis of the 10Q of Webvan and other
companies.
You criticize these companies for stealing from investors. Excuse
me, did they hold a pistol to the heads of the suckers who bought their
stock? Or were investors too lazy, stupid, and greedy to do proper due
diligence before plunking down their cash for a few thousand shares?
You know it's the latter case, and, throughout history, the lazy,
stupid, and greedy eventually come to ruin. If anything, the
consequences are less severe for them today. Sure, a lot of people had
their 401Ks wiped out, but it sure beats dying in the desert when your
wagon breaks down in August, as happened to quite a few "investors"
trying to reach the California gold fields in 1850.
Some older investors who lived through similar bubbles, like the
gold and silver bubble of 1979-80, made out like bandits in the net
era. They knew it couldn't last, and most were out of the market and
into cash by January 2001. Remember, no money ever gets "lost" in the
stock market---it gets transferred from one person to another.
I'll repeat: most of ther jobs that have been lost are gone forever
and will not come back. If you're a laid-off dot-commer hoping to find
another job that requires you to "create metrics" or "refine the
positioning" of a web site, stop kidding yourself. The party's not only
over, but the carnage is going to get worse as even more sites run out
of cash and close up in the second half of this year. As bad as things
are now, they're just going to get a lot worse.
Name: Satan
Email: Date: Thu May 17 18:08:39 2001
Comment: http://www.metheney.com/images/paul2001-L.jpg
Name: Splat
Email:splat@netslves.com Date: Thu May 17 17:44:55 2001
Comment: Kudos to Mr. Insightful for telling it the way it is.
I have written sites in Perl, VBScript, PHP, and JavaScript. Would
I call myself a developer? No, because there are many, many people that
are much better at doing it than I. I'm a UI person, enjoy it, and have
been told that I do it pretty well (and have a past work experience
list to back it up).
There are still going to be many, many jobs in the future in technology, just not of them on the business side of things.
Name: steve gilliard
Email:sgilliard@netslaves.com Date: Thu May 17 17:12:45 2001
Comment: Mr. Insightful,
If these companies had had their shit together, most of these jobs
would have never existed. The tyros in middle management had better
learn some real skills because while the jobs may return, the people
who are doing the hiring may excuse green hair and tats, they will not
excuse sloppy performance or dope dealing on the job.
I think it's fair to say that those people who did a half-assed job
for RaAgSciViganic and passed the code on to a real web shop had better
either get their acts together or go work for a profitable company,
like Krispy Kreme. Because your competent coworkers hate you. They will
not hire you. They want you to go away.
Too many people acted as if work was either a cult or a game, well
those days are over. It's time for a new business model and it doesn't
need 75 kiddies, half of whom think they are the best coders since
Minsky and the AI crew at MIT and the rest think their are chosen to be
rich.
But unlike you,I'm glad so many of these companies failed. At least
they can't steal from investors any more. I feel bad for the people
laid off, but many of them simply sucked at their job and deserved to
be fired. Ask anyone who repaired a Fish project or had to rewrite copy
from a bunch of morons who never bothered to hire a real writer.
Name: bob
Email:pale_13@usa.net Date: Thu May 17 16:38:05 2001
Comment: Mr. Insightful,
I agree with about 95% of what you just said, but don't tell people
they are automatically out of signing bonuses just yet. Some people
still might get them.
While it may be true signing bonuses are rarer these days (and I
think that was your intent by the content of your post as a whole),
they are still out these for good people with specific skill sets that
might be in demand. Since the market is saturated right now with
mediocre talent, a company who is trying to find and retain really good
talent will still pay a bonus, and in some cases, the headhunter will
put out an additional bonus of their own on top of the company bonus. I
can't comment on the differnce in amounts between now and 1999 for the
average grunt, but average won't earn you a bonus these days anyway.
Name: MasterPo
Email: Date: Thu May 17 15:30:42 2001
Comment:You treat everyone the same, until they act like assholes towards yourself or other people.
Agree with you on that one Steve. I always (at least try) to treat
everyone I meet with respect and courtesy because it's the right thing
to do. No, I'm not an angel but there's no reason to resort to insults
or throw crap around to someone you just met. I wish people would act
similarly but I'm continually disappointed in most of the people I
meet. The attitude isn't "Why should I be an ass?" but more like "Why
bother being respectful?" :-(
Name: Mr. Insightful
Email: Date: Thu May 17 15:22:39 2001
Comment:
A small word of advice to any unemployed dot-commer out there waiting for the day when "the dot-com job market will get better."
It ain't going to happen.
The jobs lost over the past year, and those that will be lost as
more dot-coms melt down over the coming months, are gone forever. Got
that? FOREVER.
Yes, there will still be a demand for good people (emphasis on
good) with such skills as programming, design, etc. But even those
people will have fewer job opportunities and won't get signing bonuses
like they did in 1999. The rest of the dot-com brigade---the business
development managers, the relationship managers, the content engineers,
the affinity marketing specialists, etc. etc.---are, as Pud might say
on his site, fucked.
I'm not gloating when I say this. I know most of you worked hard,
and worked well, and are experiencing real pain in being out of work.
But the demand for those jobs was an aberration, a total fluke. All
that VC money in 1997 and 1998 gave the economy a coke high. Now we're
crashing and there are no more lines left.
The days of 1998 and 1999 are gone forever. You're not going to get
on with the rest of your life unless you understand and accept that.
Some of the comments on this thread remind me of the laments of people
in one-company towns when the factory closes. Those people start acting
like a cargo cult, always talking of bringing in a new business, and
never dealing with the awful truth it's not going to happen. The same
thing is true in the dot-com world---most of the jobs that have been
lost are GONE FOREVER. Got that?
This means some of you are going to have to move out of NYC or SF.
But many people live, often quite happily, in NJ and Sacramento. It
might mean you have to take a lower paying job in a different field. It
might mean you start having some free time again. It might mean you
will rediscover the joys of friends and family again. It might mean
less stress and a longer life. It might mean you will be a lot happier
in the long run and that you'll look back on the days when you were
working 60+ hours a week at a dot-com and wonder what the hell you were
thinking at the time.
Good luck to each one of you.
Name: steve gilliard
Email:sgilliard@netslaves.com Date: Thu May 17 15:09:01 2001
Comment: Kenny,
You almost get it. You treat everyone the same, until they act like assholes towards yourself or other people.
The people I'm talking about have shit all over everyone they have
come in contact with. So they are in a special class. People who
deserve to be treated like shit. People who deserve whatever they get.
Now, you can try to treat everyone like shit, but I hope you enjoy
eating spit covered food. In life, some people are special, some people
are merely scum.
Name: Kenny Rosensweig
Email: Date: Thu May 17 14:41:46 2001
Comment:And I wouldn't piss on most of them if they were covered in a sheet of white phorsphorous
That's what I like about you SG, you always take a moderate approach. Would you piss on them if the were merely on fire? Irony 5) You can say shit like that and
One of the first lessons I learned in J School and have kept with
me was that everyone is the same. You treat everyone the same. this in the same breath. So all these people you trash must have screwed you over personally, right? Why else would they be exempt? How about if I treat everybody like shit? What happens then? Everybody gets treated the same, just not well.
Name: Email: Date: Thu May 17 14:37:50 2001
Comment:
A friend of mine was recently laid off from her job of five years. She
was very stressed about it but I was actually happy that they canned
her... They treated her like shit... I mean really, really bad, She'd
be crying after work and she was having all sorts of stress related
health problems. Since they gave her the boot she's like a different
person. She just got a summer gig teaching art to 8-10 year olds... not
permanent but it may be a blessing in disguise. And no, she did not get
a big fat severance package pretty good but nowhere near the "golden
parachute" level.
Name: Monty Haul
Email: Date: Thu May 17 14:32:16 2001
Comment:
I know of one guy who was a dot-com billionaire for about 15 minutes
thanks to the NASDAQ bubble. His company paid him hundreds of thousands
as a "severance" package. I heard he dropped out of the business world
entirely and signed up for pilot school.
I bet there are many, many stories like this.
Name: steve gilliard
Email:sgilliard@netslaves.com Date: Thu May 17 14:14:01 2001
Comment:
Irony 1: Those with real disciplines, writing, design and programming,
are employable because one still needs someone to do those tasks. What
I have found and what amuses me is that the people who mastered
bullshit and shat all over hardworking folks like myself, Sis and our
friends, are fucked.
The dotcoms took a good thing, the casual workplace, and drove it into the ground. Building slaveshops and all that shit.
I've known Sis for shit, almost six years, and in all that time,
we've taken very different paths. But I can vouch for her character and
her ability.
However, I know most of the same dickheads she went to help for, if
not personally, but by reputation. And I wouldn't piss on most of them
if they were covered in a sheet of white phorsphorous.
Why? Because they were phonies, liars and scum. Which is why I never drank their booze, ate their food or dealt with them.
They were not serious people. They were shafting employees long
before the final days. I fought long and hard with them on the WWWAC
list and other places, because they were simply wrong.
It's not like Sis trusted them, God knows she had more sense than that. But she worked with them and that was enough.
Why won't they help her? Because these people bought into a culture
of greed and selfishness where they think they owe nothing to anyone. I
can't wait to see some of these assholes come to me or any one of us
for a favor. My memory is both sharp and long.
Irony 2: Most of the dickheads will never work in this industry
again because they don't have to. Dachis and the rest are rich. Not
super rich, but rich enough to never work again. Now, that may not be
the case after the lawsuits are settled, but for now, they are rich and
they will go away.
Which isa good thing. Because so many of them would have been
hinderances to us in our future lives. Imagine Jeff Dachis on an NEA
grant committee or Kyle Shannon as a casting agent. That's where they
were headed. This prevents that and allows them to go about their lives
without harming anyone else.
Irony 3:The new internet company will look nothing, nothing like
the bloated, empire building dotcom. These folks will try to play the
game again, after all, wouldn't you want to repeat your success, and
they will find the doors closed.
One of the first lessons I learned in J School and have kept with
me was that everyone is the same. You treat everyone the same. You are
no nicer to the secretary than your boss. Because there will be a day
where that secretary will save your ass because you treated her with
respect. Or she will fuck you over because you laughed at her when she
needed a day off.
It is far better to have friends you don't know about than enemies you have no idea about.
Name: The Other Cheek
Email: Date: Thu May 17 14:06:28 2001
Comment: Well, y'all: Try being a content person (award-winning, but that
and a token ...) in this job market. All the New Media opportunities
have dried up, and all the traditional media companies that I could've
crawled back to are also shedding staff like mad. Guess it's back to
freelancing until people start hiring again.
Name: MasterPo
Email: Date: Thu May 17 14:00:40 2001
Comment: Perl Developer - Learning Perl from a book even doing a little
programming on your own, may let you talk more intellegently but it bur
doesn't make you a programmer.
The worse thing you can do on your resume or interview is represent
that you have a skill you don't. 'Cause any interviewer with the brains
of a rat would then ask "How many years?" or "Where did you get the
experience? Which company on your Resume?" and then you either lie your
ass off or are screwed.
Name: Joe Calico
Email: Date: Thu May 17 13:40:01 2001
Comment: That's the funniest comparisons I've seen yet in the contract to hire space, ROTF:
"I'll marry you if you fuck me now")
Name: bongwater
Email: Date: Thu May 17 13:36:33 2001
Comment: To Perl Developer:
That's a fucked up thing to say because you don't know the author's exact experience or skillset.
Teaching yourself Perl doesn't mean you're a good Perl programmer.
My pet peeve is with all of the ITP people (that's graduates of
NYU's ITP program). Most of them hold the local puppet strings but few
actually know anything of value.
Those are the ones who should be weeded out.
Name: Joe Calico
Email: Date: Thu May 17 13:35:45 2001
Comment:
Give the guy a break you perl jack off. He is being honest about his
ability, which is alot more than most of the newly found techie nerd
wana be johnny come lately "web developers" of the past three years.
"I think it's a good thing that non-technical, big-shot, worthless
"product managers" like you are being weeded out of this business. "
Name: Email: Date: Thu May 17 13:33:47 2001
Comment:
Bongwater, I feel your pain... I finished up in 1996 with BFA in
Photography... Kicked around NYC until '98 trying to drum up a decent
photo career. Ended up pushing pixels in photoshop for a while. I've
had three dotcom jobs since November of 98 and I'm praying the ax
doesn't fall anytime real soon because the stock agencies have killed
the freelance photo-market and even Newsweek pays shitty day rates.
There's always wedding's but talk about stress....
Name: Perl Developer
Email: Date: Thu May 17 13:30:25 2001
Comment: You wrote:
" "Well, there's not really anything out there that's an exact fit,
but do you program in Perl?" (Did I mention I'm a Product Manager?) "
Well then, maybe you should learn Perl, if that is where the jobs
are at. To be honest with you, I think it's a good thing that
non-technical, big-shot, worthless "product managers" like you are
being weeded out of this business.
Name: MasterPo
Email: Date: Thu May 17 13:29:36 2001
Comment: Gotta agree with you on that one Twisted, insofar as none of your
"friends" lending a hand. Usually these are the people who spout like
the God Father when times are good but when you do need some help they
have some BS excuse why they can't help. Asses all.
Name: bongwater
Email: Date: Thu May 17 13:11:41 2001
Comment:
Yes, that's my dilema. I got out of school in May of '95 and by June
'95 I was working in the Internet business. It's the only thing I
really know and the only area I'm really interested in. So, there's the
rub.
For every local layoff, there are 5 additional competitors for the
few openings available. Employers now can give you the "Montgomery
Burns" treatment whenever they want.
In short, it sucks!
Name: twisted sistah
Email:bitemybeaver@hotmail.com Date: Thu May 17 12:58:03 2001
Comment: Well...here's my story, in a nutshell, more to come perhaps if I
ever pull myself out of my depression enough to write it down.....
October--laid off from the "new media" division of a traditional
company...good package, was assured that "I'd get a job in two
seconds--the economy is great..." Nothing interview-wise until November
still no results....then freelance work (big chunk) came up around
Xmas. Was supposed to lead to full-time (the ultimate "I'll marry you
if you fuck me now") but it didn't. One more contract with same folks
later, had an offer made and then rescinded because of major financial
fuckups and other layoffs in the company....
The result? It's May. I still don't have a job. Temp firms shun
anyone with an advanced degree or any smidgen of ambition I would LOVE
to go back to proofing and editing at law firms (my student-day
standby) but they won't touch anyone who is NOT an actor or student at
those firms in NYC.
I'm also being evicted in a matter of weeks because my unit is being sold out from under me.
I have 8 weeks of Unemployment chex left. I have some savings I've
been careful I actually have enough money to move. I am networking my
ass off with real people with real connections, not dotcom asswipes.
Oh one other thing on that......for everyone who I ever knew in the
industry, and it's LOTS of people...very very few extend themselves to
others and have come to realize that a good recommendation and passing
along a resume to someone else costs them NOTHING. When I finally
opened up to my folks that all was not well in Gotham, I was shocked at
the number of people who offered help in the form of character
references, passing along resumes in their own companies, etc....by
contrast, I've been at caviar parties where someone I thought I knew
for 5 years looks me straight in the eye and lies to me that they can't
pass my resume to HR. Just like that. Like doing someone a small favor
will fucking kill them.
I actually have had two interviews this week with more traditional
companies....and you know what? I am SO GLAD that my particular
skillset is transferrable. I made New Media my career (as in before the
Net) but let me tell you......all the relaxed dress codes in the world
don't pay the bills.
Name: Splat
Email:splat@netslaves.com Date: Thu May 17 12:19:59 2001
Comment: To the person who thought I may be one of those overpaid idiots:
Before this whole dot com thing, I had a career as a graphic
designer. Worst case scenario, I go back to magazine design, and I
could fairly easily find a job doing that. Many of the survivors during
this time are from other industries. The problem is that there is a
whole group of people that their whole existence in the wroking world
has involved the Internet. And that's a bad thing.
Name: bongwater
Email: Date: Thu May 17 11:51:12 2001
Comment: Pale and others:
I've been laid off before even when things were "good" and knew to save.
However, I have rent to pay for like everyone else and I don't have insurance because my previous employer fucked up COBRA.
I can't afford to pay the premiums anyhow as I have no idea how
long I'll be out of work. It has already been a long time and the
prospects grow bleaker everyday.
Name: Email: Date: Thu May 17 11:30:55 2001
Comment: After I was laid off I didn't even bother looking for another job... I just spend my days sailing around on my 40 foot yacht.
Name: MasterPo
Email: Date: Thu May 17 11:23:29 2001
Comment: It's a very typical attitude of young people today. While I suppose
young people have always had more a live-for-the-momnet attitude than
someone a little older and wiser, the current crop of 20-somethings
really takes it to an extreme.
Name: Paul T. Riddell
Email: Date: Thu May 17 11:14:26 2001
Comment:
Damn, must be nice to concentrate on cooking classes and rock climbing
instead of job hunting. But then I wonder how many of these little
darlings plan to move back in with Mommy and Daddy (or go back to
business school -- same thing) the moment they run out of disposable
income.
Don't get me wrong: I was laid off two weeks ago, and there's
something to be said about not having to put up with bullshit from an
idiot boss for a little bit. However, the "Post" article was just a
variation on all of the mental masturbatory articles on dotcom life
that ran when things go well. The same editors who ground their teeth
about dotcom life are now chuckling over running articles suggesting
that dot-commies "aren't serious about finding a job", meaning that the
rest of us are that much less likely to find anything because our
potential bosses think that we're more interested in rock climbing and
yoga than work. (In many ways, this piece is a companion to all of
those pud-pulls about how "anyone can get a job in the Internet
economy" that always came out right when nobody could find work.)
In any case, I'm glad someone told these reporters to STFU, because
I'm desperately sick and tired of having to explain to people in the
business why I'm searching harder than before for a job but amazingly
can't find one. "Well, you may hear it's a great job market, but
everyone's looking for 22-year-olds with fifteen years of Java
experience..."
Name: Lay Pipe
Email: Date: Thu May 17 11:05:45 2001
Comment:
You are right on the money, man. I can't stand thw whiney bullshit some
of these useless, laid-off dot.comers are still venting. Stop the latte
habit, quit folling yourselves into believeing you can think your way
out, and hit the fucking pavement like everyone else. And for those who
think they don't need to take a lower paying job or a less important
job, think again. You were at the bottom of the corporate food chain to
begin with. There is nowhere to go but up and we are tired of listening
to the moaning and groaning.
Name: zb
Email: Date: Thu May 17 10:15:14 2001
Comment:
Agree with everything. My non-dot-com startup may not have a whole lot
longer to live. I've got a little money socked away, but also a few
more responsibilities than Valerie et. al. Of course, I may not be
typical because I go climbing twice a week while I'm employed.
Name: bob
Email:pale_13@usa.net Date: Thu May 17 09:43:51 2001
Comment:
bongwater, you may not have the rock-climbing attitude, but you do have
a lot more cash in reserve than most people. Granted, people should
sock money away the way you did and you are to be commended for your
foresight, but the people really getting crushed are those who have
been out of work as long as you have who haven't the financial reserves
you managed to put away.
Name: bongwater
Email: Date: Thu May 17 09:09:58 2001
Comment: It's about time for an article like this!
I got laid off nearly 6 months ago and despite having some money saved, the last thing on my mind was a trip to Costa Rica.
I have NYC rent to pay, bills to pay, and other responsibilities.
I've been pounding the pavement nearly every day. When I'm not looking
for work, I'm stressing about what I'm going to do in 5-6 months when
I'm running on fumes financially.
The media is clueless as to what most of us are going through.
Name: earrational
Email:nunya@bizniz.com Date: Thu May 17 08:49:29 2001
Comment:
what the h@ll is wrong with you?! 20 bucks/hour?! jump for it you
prissy little wanker! blue collar background my butt! do you have any
idea how many workers would love to be earning 20 bucks/hour?! ya whiny
b@st@rd!
Name: Joe Calico
Email: Date: Thu May 17 08:46:45 2001
Comment:
Name: Confused in the Old Economy
Email: Date: Thu May 17 08:41:59 2001
Comment: OK, pardon my comprehension gap, bu how can you make a statement like this:
To
get bodies, they hired everyone they could get - receptionists at
60,000 per year, project managers whose previous business experience
was Junior Achievement in high school, and anyone that could spell
H-T-M-L.
...and
then demand sympathy for all the out of work dot-commers? Dot Coms
hired idiots, losers, morons, under-skilled and over paid nobodys. Why
the hell does every article seem to imply that the author thinks that
they are not one of the over-paid idiots?
Name: Thomas Muntzer
Email:muntzer@peasantsrevolt.com Date: Thu May 17 07:52:27 2001
Comment:
As long as the media continues to run the story about ex-dotcommers
(articles like this) ex-dotcommers will continue to go on talking.
