I didn't think it could happen to me, but it did. I became yet another casualty in the growing numbers of IT victims.
I had a great 9.5 years in the United States Air Force, when I
decided to get out and do what I really love, which is to work with
computers and Web design. I worked for a month with a small computer
company in Northern Maine and then bailed for a "better" job with an
insurance company a few miles south.
A better salary and promises of a great atmosphere lured me in. I
was foolish though, there were warning signs around. The first one;
"This is a new position!" Uh oh! I bought into it and 2.5 months later,
I am dumped.
Convenient how I finished up all of their pet projects, like
getting their $50,000 IBM 3590 Tape system working (they couldn't do it
after over two years) and helping them to migrate over 200 computers to
fast Ethernet from token-ring. Nope, all those long hours and weekends
didn't pay off for me.
At five minutes to four (just before closing time) on a Friday (how
appropriate) I get called into the manager's office. He, his
obsessive-compulsive sidekick and the HR "induhvidual" are sitting
there, predatory. I just know there is going to be trouble. "I'm sorry,
it's just not working out. You are not a good fit for this position."
Sounds like I'm being fired. But wait, at the end, "Your position is
terminated, effective today." Two weeks on and that position hasn't
been advertised and I hear other folks have been "let go".
So I get used for 2.5 months and then let go like a piece of meat. How nice. Feel the love.
Lessons learned;
1) If you are the new guy, watch your back. Political machinations
may be taking place behind your back, which may result in you being
expendable.
2) Pay attention to what is going on around you. I should have seen
the dismissal coming, since the company hasn't been meeting its profit
quotas for the last quarter. How better to cover that up then to get
rid of extra expenses (ie, those new positions).
3) Be sure to check a prospective employer out closely. Look past
the "friendly" front and try to get a real feel for the folks working
at Company ABC.
I hope that when I find a new job, I don't make the same mistakes I've made recently. It really bites.
Name: El Blanko
Email: Date: Sat May 5 23:20:38 2001
Comment: Just say NO to Unions.
Name: El Blanko
Email: Date: Sat May 5 23:16:42 2001
Comment: Just say NO to Unions.
Name: Email: Date: Thu May 3 15:03:52 2001
Comment: Here's a corporate strategy: netslaves get restless and unionize; merge with a non-union company and get rid of them all.
Name: Email: Date: Thu May 3 14:57:23 2001
Comment:
Hey, here's a good business idea: if IT workers unionize, start a
company that provides off-site replacement labor when IT workers
strike!
Name: Screw Puppy
Email: Date: Thu May 3 13:23:27 2001
Comment:
Unions aren't the answer. There's nothing special about dot-coms and
dot-com failure. It's just a job like any other. You can get laid off,
fired, whatever. Anyone who takes a job looking for more than a
paycheck is a sucker.
Name: heedlesshouseman
Email: Date: Thu May 3 13:06:01 2001
Comment: Moral: ....are doomed to repeat it.
Name: MasterPo
Email: Date: Thu May 3 09:39:37 2001
Comment: Curtis - I like the idea of a Guild over a Union. NTL, Guilds are
typically for skilled labor. You can read a "Teach Yourself (whatever)
in 21 days" and with a home PC get pretty well skilled and have an even
chance of getting a decent (albeit starting) job. Not the kind of
thinga Guild or Union can regulate easily. IOW, the barriers
(obsticles) to entry in the computer field are so low right now just
about anyone can get started.
Steve - Consider the economic impact of Union contracts on small or
start-up companies. Not all are dot-bombs but there are no guarantees
either. Can you imagine a Union demanding OT pay and all kinds
of bennies for the programmers at a start-up that can barely pay the
rent on day 1?? Consider what happened to Chrysler. They almost went
out of business and yet to the end the Union didn't give an inche and
infact wanted more. When the company did finally turn around and barely
make a profit again once more the Unions were demanding raises and
bennies.
You're going to need some minimum threshhold to protect small
struggling businesses. OTOH, once you have such a threshhold it's an
incentive for the business to stay small on paper to avoid the unions
and thus you again get fewer people doing more work.
The concept of what a Union stands for is good. But in terms of
functioning in the computer/IT field it's like trying for force a
square peg ina round hole.
Name: Email: Date: Thu May 3 09:25:44 2001
Comment: what I dont understand is Kernel Panic's idea that workers ask for "too much with too little in return".
Tell me, how much is too much? I'm willing to give my labor but on
the proviso that a real part of what I give goes back to me. Is it
wrong to expect reciprocity? How much am I supposed to give before I
can expect some form of health benefit, some form of retirement plan or
pension, some form of socially acceptable recourse in the event that
there is a conflict with management and a decent salary / wage from
which there is the wherewithall to improve my circumstances.
We've been socialized to think that asking for a fiar shake is
asking too much, that we ought to put others (workplace) before
ourselves, and that money isn't everything.
I've noticed that to them, (the people for whom I work) money IS everything. Maybe they know something we don't eh?
There's only one way an employer can thank me, and that is to PAY me. everything else is bullshit.
Name: Curtis R Anderson
Email:gleepy@bigfoot.com Date: Wed May 2 23:39:24 2001
Comment:
Being a fan of those teriffic pipe organs, I visited the web site of
the American Institute of Organ Builders at http://www.aiob.org. Their
members adhere to a code of conduct which insures they do no work in a
building that can violate building codes. Their model code of conduct
can serve as one that IT workers can use.
What a guild or union needs to do is to:
1. Allow minimum pay for certain types of work, payable preferably
through both a hourly wage and a type of piecework for program units
sucessfully checked in by passing a regression test of some sort.
2. Provide arbitrators to handle pay disputes.
3. Establish a legally binding code of conduct which shifts the
burden of responsibility for wilfully malicious code upon the employee
rather than the employer. This helps relieve responsibility from the
employer for bad code and gives the programmer the legal ability to
refuse to do certain dangerous work without fear of reprisal.
4. Allow a portable pension, 401k and health insurance program,
preventing waiting periods before paying for pre-existing medical
conditions each time the employee changes employers.
Name: steve gilliard
Email:sgilliard@netslaves.com Date: Wed May 2 22:17:38 2001
Comment: They can move to India and when their ops go to crap, who do they blame then?
There are no cheap solutions. Every solution costs money. The
Indian infrastructure can't support the scale of IT work. This is a
country where most people who have never used a telephone.
You wouldn't want to be the company shipping 50K jobs overseas.
Most software companies are not Microsoft, they get boycotted, they
won't stay in business long.
Look, India and China send their best people here to get educated.
Who do not go back. Don't even want to think about going back. Do you
seriously think moving to India is a long term solution.
Hollywood didn't move anywhere and they hated unions.
What people have to understand is that unions bring stability. You
have rules. Not now, not in dotcom land. Unions could have saved these
companies a lot of money and hassle by establishing work rules and
lower health care costs, benefits which would have been transferable.
They could have even managed 401K's. Let's not even discuss the savings
in legal fees by using arbitration.
Smart companies would choose to deal with unions over dealing with lawyers. You usually get one or the other.
Name: Email: Date: Wed May 2 22:13:20 2001
Comment:
Ten years ago, if you wanted to be in the electrician's union , you had
to know someone. It didn't matter how competent you were or how much
experience you had. If you didn't have a father or uncle in the union,
you couldn't get in. Trade unions are a cure that's worse than the disease.
Name: Wally
Email:wloude@mailexcite.com Date: Wed May 2 21:21:04 2001
Comment:
In reference to direct workers getting paid alaries instead of being on
an hourly wage, I seem to recall that the FLSA (federal/fair labor
standards act???) uses a dollar cutoff to determine who is bound to the
8 hour day, 40 hour week with overtime pay for anything over that. In
all probablity, most IT workers exceed the dollar threshold and can be
salaried with "open ended" work hours even though they are not
executives.
Name: PaullyJoe
Email: Date: Wed May 2 20:58:03 2001
Comment:
The one thing that I don't get in all of this discussion is that
corporations have the same type of collective bargaining with workers -
if you don't think business associations don't serve that purpose,
you're blind. Why shouldn't workers get the same benefits?
Name: Kernel Panic
Email: Date: Wed May 2 20:48:50 2001
Comment: I think it was on Tech T.V. where I saw that there is indeed an IT worker's union forming somewhere, in the U.S.
We have to remember though...IT is much more portable
than...say...a manufacturing plant. Watch how fast your company's
infrastructure moves to co-lo's in India, If you organize and start
asking for way too much for way too little in return, as is the state
of organized labor now. Labor unions in the U.S. are absolutely
undermining our national security, by driving out industrial capacity.
What are we going to defend our freedom with? Will we root all of their
boxes and knock out their ballistic missle capacity? Sure..They'll do
the same. Then we'll be left fighting tanks and bayonets with
keyboards, and big macs. Sorry...back on track...my point is
this...universal fairness is good for all parties involved. Will
organized labor solve problems with the IT industry? Sure...for like 10
minites. Then what?
Name: steve gilliard
Email:sgilliard@netslaves.com Date: Wed May 2 20:28:04 2001
Comment:
What is so funny is that everyone talks about the downside of unions
and unions can suck. Have a show in the javits center and see how bad
they are.
But that's not a relevant argument. Think about you versus the
corporation. Not a good thing. Collective action works around the
world, it can work in IT.
Name: Kernel Panic
Email: Date: Wed May 2 19:32:35 2001
Comment:
In all fairness though. Our local was involved with "the mob" simply
because the companies are too. Alot of people think of the union as
"the mean old mob". Trust me....corporations aren't all white panties
and perfume. Think about Rockafeller hiring the Pinkertons to
intimidate/murder in the name of capitializm and the free market.
Yes...we owe much in the U.S.A. to our early labor organizers. Much
more than many of us realize.
BTW...I already know I can't spell so lay off.
Name: B Labor
Email: Date: Wed May 2 18:13:18 2001
Comment:
Here's what you ned for an IT union to succeed nationally - a take no
prisoners, idealistic charismatic LEADER - remember Albert Shanker,
Mike Quill, Walter Ruether, Harry Bridge? In short soemone with cojones..a quality scarce in IT types I've run across..anyone want to volunteer...
Name: Kernel Panic
Email: Date: Wed May 2 17:58:53 2001
Comment:
I use to work for a unionized shop. Teamsters local 327. That was
absolutely positively the sorriest most pathetic group of do-nothings
I've ever worked with. I've also had first hand experience with the
Ford Motor Company employees in Dearborn MI. I swear, I can't see how
these companies stay in business, with such sorry, loathsome workers.
My shop stweart actually called me on the carpet once, for helping a 94
year old customer of mine, carry a package inside his store. Seems that
helping old people wasn't in our contract. I was required (according to
them) to get his signature, kick the freight off the truck, then drive
away. Fuck unions and everything they stand for.
Name: Joe Calico
Email:joecalico@hotmail.com Date: Wed May 2 17:57:09 2001
Comment: Who the FUCK do you think created the weekend folks, thank your local UNION members some day.
Name: UnionMan
Email: Date: Wed May 2 17:55:30 2001
Comment:
Just checking back in. Looks like my earlier comments have stirred up
some good debate. BTW I have been working in the computer field for
many years, having left the blue collar world behind. I am aware of the
ancedotal evidence of unions allowing slackers to continue unabated. In
fact, before getting into the tech field, I managed union factory
workers. What a royal pain in the ass that was! So I can sympathize
with those of you who have legitimate issues with unions.
Maybe unions are not the answer, but we definitely need more
protection for tech workers. We are not executive level decision
makers. Why then are we treated as salaried employees? Don't expect
Congress to rectify this situation, as they are mostly in the pockets
of big business. Now Big Business will complain bitterly that having to
pay overtime will run them out of business. This is of course bullshit.
We live in the largest, richest economy in the world. It's about time
the pie is cut a bit more equitably.
A tech union without lots of silly work rules and leadership who
are serious about working with management could be possible. Personally
I would rather see some sense of fairness develop in our work culture
that would make the need for unions obsolete. I'm entitled to dream a
little, aren't I?
Name: Joe Calico
Email:joecalico@hotmail.com Date: Wed May 2 17:53:03 2001
Comment:
Regarding non payment,I have been shafted for 5k. Paid 100 bucks to an
attorney here in Houston, TX to discover 1099 contractors cannot use
the Texas WorkForce Commission for arbitration. I could have sued in
civil court and won a judgement, collecting would have been a problem
because the company was very near to insolvent.
Name: Joe Calico
Email:joecalico@hotmail.com Date: Wed May 2 17:48:51 2001
Comment:
Steve Giliard, best post I have read on this thread. Myself and fellow
co-workers frequently discuss this topic. I long for the day when
technical workers have more bargaining power in regards to issues from
wages to immigrant importation of labor. I know these are sensitive
issues to many who attempt to be pc about H1b visas. Again, the best
post I have seen regarding this issue. I also enjoyed the interview
article with Peter Lewis. From the discussions I have had with other
technical workers after the latest assult on the workplace, we are
primed to make a move in this direction.
Name: steve gilliard
Email:sgilliard@netslaves.com Date: Wed May 2 17:42:25 2001
Comment:
Has anyone here worked with a white collar union? Probably not. Since
promotions are based on civil service tests and not who likes whom.
Everyone slags the feds, but as the son of a retired federal
employee, I don't remember my father goofing off. I do remember his
stories of dealing with wacked out, suicidal vets.
What amazes me is that everyone sees industrial union when they see
union. In this economy, it's clear that any IT union would be more like
the WGA than the UAW. The problem that IT workers have are the things
best cured by outside intervention. Just as the WGA sets a minimum for
a script, but no maximum, an IT union would establish overtime and
other work rules, not determine who gets promoted. It would establish a
health and benefits plan which didn't depend on the vagaries of company
management.
A union doesn't start Todd Pratt over Mike Piazza. What it does do
is arbitrate disputes between the players and the league. It makes sure
that players have pensions and health insurance and minimum salaries.
Just read about how baseball's minimum wage exploded after 1966.
When the union began. All of the benefits which devolved to the player,
like the right to move to another team with the highest bidder,
arbitrate salary hikes with their current team, have representation in
front of the league.
An IT union could prevent the worst abuses, like non-payments and
settling sexual harassment claims. It doesn't have to control who gets
promoted or how much they make over the minimum, which we already know
exists.
You have to see the way non-industrial unions work to see their
benefits. They allow the worker maximum freedom to make as much as
possible, but they do not enter the employee/employer relationship,
except at key points.
Who would want a union designation Website Designer 1 and Website Designer 2. That makes no sense for anyone.
Name: MasterPo
Email: Date: Wed May 2 17:12:20 2001
Comment: Anon - I'm concerned (amoung other things) that with a union a) I
will work my buns off while someone else will surf the net but will get
the same raise and promo as me without having worked as hard; b) If I
do work harder, get more training or education, or come up with a great
idea for the company I'll be stuck at union wage and union promotion
schedules rather than be able to get the recognition I would deserve;
c) In an economic macro sense I'm concerned it will hurt the U.S. tech
industries market advantage.
Name: dardan
Email: Date: Wed May 2 16:51:20 2001
Comment: "a low life blue collar"?
hey! i drink beer & bitch about the boss with the best of them!
Name: Email: Date: Wed May 2 16:46:47 2001
Comment: MasterPro - So 80hr weeks on a straight salary with no bennies breeds excellence? 24/7 agita
from lack of any semblance of stability is healthy?
I'm getting a sense that youse guys are more concerned that somebody should do less than you. Every workplace has it's goof offs.
Mebbe you guys are worried that being union means yer a low life blue collar. You
should be all for some form of collective bargaining, *especially* if
you think you are that good you can write your own ticket, since it
would increas your value as an independant contractor. IOW 100% unionization wil never happen and just think of what you can charge as a scab when there is a strike
Name: dardan
Email: Date: Wed May 2 16:42:01 2001
Comment: MasterPro, add to that:
Union says no o/t or only 9-5, will projects get done on time? What would be the incentive?
Right now you have companies have plenty of dog fuckers w/o any
unions around. Also with benefits: would that really change if a union
came in?
From past experience, its the non-hi tech sectors & part timers
who need the benefits of some collective bargaining (maybe like
MacDonalds).
This so called New Ecomony would indeed need a New Union, otherwise why bother?
And if the rest of the economy worked the same way we as a nation would be shit out of luck! :-)
Name: Ertischek
Email: Date: Wed May 2 16:24:19 2001
Comment: :MsterPo
Re: Can you imagine 30 minutes a day to surf? Or people who know they can't be fired so they surf instead of work?
Such things now exist. Its called the federal government
Name: MasterPo
Email: Date: Wed May 2 16:13:24 2001
Comment: Ertischek - That may be so. NTL, I've busted my ass working in
places that acted like defacto union shops. Got me no where because I
wasn't in the department long enough to deserve (not earned mind you) a
promotion or transfer or training or whatever. At least give me the
fleeting glimmer of hope that my efforts will be recognized and
rewarded.
BTW, if you think a lot of people not sit around and surf the web
during the work day, imagine what it will be like if unionized. Can you
imagine 30 minutes a day to surf? Or people who know they can't be
fired so they surf instead of work?
Name: B Labor
Email: Date: Wed May 2 16:05:02 2001
Comment: Re:frat buddy who drew 100K a year
For an article i'm putting together on the frat buddy factor in the
dotcom circus, woulda ppreciate hearing from any frat buddy who cleaned
up in this thing..
Hate to lay my MA in english trip on ya..but that was Tolstoy witht happy family thing there..
MasterPo:
The ugly truth is that it is because of the unions that you have
the priviledge of a fairly relaxed forty hour basic work deal and
probably company paid medical,dental, vacation time, a hell of a lot
more legal rights our grandparents never heard of, not to mention nice
civilized compenation for your work..to many people got their heads
busted so that these things are now taken as god given rights..check
your history of the labor wars......without unions you'd be doing 18
hours a days six days a week with no recourse..tired of the union
bashing especially here..
Name: MasterPo
Email: Date: Wed May 2 15:45:11 2001
Comment: Steve - My biggest peeve with unionization is that while it does
protect some, IMO it stiffles far more. Two people working at a job,
both will get the same pay, the same bennies etc etc. but one has moe
talent and drive than the other but is held back because it's against
union rules. Or, the person with more time in gets the promotion even
though they don't deserve it in terms of ability, or someone with more
talent but less time doesn't get it.
It breeds mediocraty and less than the fullest from people. I don't
accept that we are all blind dumb-dumbs sucking off the boss for our
pay checks. People have forced changed in the work place without
unionizing.
BTW, wasn't the CWA supposed to have unionized (or at least tried to unionize) several IT shops? What happened there?
Name: sbdwestpac
Email:sbdwestpac@aol.com Date: Wed May 2 15:09:55 2001
Comment:
Document last: We had a database developer who had to take a leave of
absence to take care of his wife for a period of three or four months.
He was designing a database that was essentially a demo. He wasn't
allowed to telecommute, but worked from home on the database to meet
project deadlines. Since he was never in the office, however, the
project lead decided that he was expendable and laid him off. They gave
the database to another team who then discovered that not one line of
code was documented. The developer figured that since the project was a
demo, and might not ever get funded, there was no reason to spend time
documenting it. Nobody had a clue as to how it worked. And then when
they went to demo it for a group of project managers, nobody knew the
administrator password to open the database. The entire project now
resides in a cardboard box in a lab. The developer got another job
almost immediately.
Name: steve gilliard
Email:sgilliard@netslaves.com Date: Wed May 2 15:08:25 2001
Comment:
It's funny, my mom was a Teamster, and the benefits were OK. She didn't
drive a truck, she had a white collar government job. But it's like
fraud, waste and abuse, everyone can site case after case where Uncle
Sam is mispending your cash, but when I list seven companies which have
lost over 3b in less than five years, no one says, shit, corporate
America is rife with fraud, waste and abuse.
Name the government agency which has Aeron chairs and foosball
tables, who's executives take home millions? Won't find any, because
there is minimal government accountability, and people do go to jail
for stealing from Uncle Sam.
For every lazy union guy you can name, I can think of some CEO's
girlfriend or frat buddy who drew 100K a year, about 60K more than the
lazy trucker, and the trucker didn't fuck over a bunch of investors
while he was at it.
Unions at least give you a voice in the workplace. If you think by
silently going along with the boss that you'll get ahead, think again.
These executives are running a club where they cash out when the stock
is less than a dollar. A freaking penny stock.
And you all want to debate the ethics of organizing? Are you
kidding me? There are workers and there is management. Unless you, as a
worker, protect your rights, you're gonna get fucked. No-notice
layoffs, no overtime, no transferrable insurance. This shit matters.
Hell, some companies even stole the 401K money.
Yes, the Teamsters was mobbed up. And the workers got rid of the mob. By votes.
The question you need to start asking yourselves is not whether
unions suck as a concept, but will collective bargaining help you live
the life you want, the way you want. That is the issue on the table,
not whether unions get in the way of work.
Actors, athletes, musicians, all have unions. Why? Because they
want health benefits and a base salary when they work. All these people
you mock as stupid, get minimum benefits despite making millions. So
how stupid are they? Stupid enough to know they need collective
leverage against the multinationals they work for.
Name: Bostonian
Email: Date: Wed May 2 15:00:05 2001
Comment:
An actual experience with a union worker: Me and my boss were attaching
a sensitive transducer to a steel bulkhead. It was large, fragile, and
required many physical and electrical connections. The local union
would not let us perform any work without one of their union employees
present (as we were non-union). So, the guy they sent did his job: He
was present. That was about the extent of it. He just sat on an
overturned bucket and watched us work. At one point my boss and I were
elbows deep in the cables, and we asked this guy if he would pick up a
nearby screwdriver and hand it to us. He said, with a straight face,
"No". I almost laughed, I was so certain that he must be making a joke.
He wasn't. I will never forget that moment for as long as I live.
Name: steve gilliard
Email:sgilliard@netslaves.com Date: Wed May 2 14:46:21 2001
Comment: Folks,
I'm finding out that these companies are interchangable.
Piiq.com,Boo.com, to paraphrase Chekov, every failed dotcom is the
same, it is the successful ones which have their own story.
Name: BA
Email: Date: Wed May 2 14:37:40 2001
Comment:
Unions = not necessarily good. I knew a Teamster several years ago who
was basically a driver. He got two mandated 10-minute breaks per hour
to smoke (non-smokers got no break, so just about everyone in this job
started lighting up so that they could take the breaks), five minutes
off per hour to rest his feet (this was not a medical disability), and
a half-hour break per day besides lunch. He was clearing $40k per year,
which in this small town was a very sweet salary. Poor peformance did
not get him or any of his buddies thrown out on their asses; they
frequently worked hung over, or drunk, but they had so much seniority,
they said, that they couldn't get fired. (Actually, hearing this guy's
stories and seeing him in action were a major factor in my political
evolution from pro-union NPR liberal to crusty free-market
libertarian.)
Unions may *have* done far more good than harm, UnionMan --
sweatshop workers in the early part of this centurly were treated
abominably before the workers organized -- but there are many of us who
have seen such abuses of the system as by the guy I knew and his fellow
Teamsters, and we are skeptical. These guys would sit around and laugh
about how little work they had to do and how the company had to sit
there and take it because, they said, "You can't stop the Teamsters!"
Unfortunately many of my friends and I have similar experiences of, and
exposure to, unions. We don't *want* to screw over our employers, and
we want to do a good job and not automatically position ourselves as
antagonistic to them. We just want to protect ourselves from getting
dumped on. We also don't want to make massive payments to an
uber-organization (right on, samezone), some of the positions of which
we do not agree with, and we are uncomfortable with the idea of someone
who might be a total chucklehead serving as our "representative." (Yes,
this is how our government works, but I don't pay money to vote for
President.)
If there is to be a technical workers' union, then, it's going to
have to follow a whole new model, and there's going to have to be a
serious hearts-and-minds campaign to win me and my dubious cohort over
to it. I am not saying it can't be done, but there would be major
obstacles.
(I do not mean to imply, UnionMan, that you have anything at all in
common with the load Teamster I knew. No offense of course -- I am only
speaking from what I have known.)
The guy I mentioned? Today he is a regional Teamsters rep, working his way up to the national administration.
Name: m@
Email:kerouaciness@hotmail.com Date: Wed May 2 14:10:12 2001
Comment:
A guy named Matt with 9.5 years in the Air Force that got out to do
'puter stuff..and is now unemployed. Help, my identity has been stolen.
Name: UnionMan
Email: Date: Wed May 2 14:04:16 2001
Comment:
You have some good points. However unions have done far more good than
harm. Look at our system of government. Same thing, although
dues-collecting reads tax-collecting. I have friends who work union
construction jobs. Contrary to popular myth, these people work their
asses off. The only thing is they get good guaranteed pensions, a job
you can actually support a family on, and proper compensation for
overtime worked.
My own experiences with unions was with the Teamsters as a truck
driver. I also drove for non union companies. In the non union company,
you made approximately half of what a union driver made, with NO, that
is NO fucking benefits whatsoever. One employer actually stated that
you would not know how much you earned if you have fringe benefits on
top of your salary. Not only that, but you had the choice of driving
broken down unsafe equipment or get fired! In the union company, if a
truck was unfit to be driven, the company would have to find another
replacement vehicle. Needless to say, the pay was great, there were
good benefits and overtime pay. And yes, you were expected to do your
job, since poor performance will still get you thrown out on your ass.
Until human nature changes, or we all become gazillionaires, working people are going to have to present an organized front.
Name: samezone19
Email: Date: Wed May 2 13:48:10 2001
Comment:
The only union I ever worked with was the Teamsters. I wasn't in the
union - in fact nobody who did any work was in the union - just the
boss and his sons, who ran the company.
The workers - us - the guys who loaded and drove the trucks -
weren't in the union. Many of the drivers didn't even have valid
drivers licences.
This corruption was all based on dues-collecting. If there's going
to be any kind of online union organizing, my rec is to keep cash out
of it - information is power enough, but the corruption is intolerable.
Bad for people (see "On the Waterfront"), bad for the economy (because
it's so wasteful).
Name: UnionMan
Email: Date: Wed May 2 13:39:26 2001
Comment:
Interesting article. Unfortunately we will continue to be treated like
shit until we unionize. What a Communist concept. Getting paid time and
a half for hours worked over 40? What's wrong with that? Give the
workers the money rather than consulting firms, er body shops.
Name: Geoff D
Email:bob_ten@hotmail.com Date: Wed May 2 13:27:59 2001
Comment:
Moral of the story: some people actually respond to 'good faith'
arguments. (many, however, don't, so wear the butt-mounted taser
anyway.)
Name: Geoff D
Email:bob_ten@hotmail.com Date: Wed May 2 13:27:08 2001
Comment:
I go, every June, to Dallas, TX for a Japanese animation convention. I
always - ALWAYS - set the time off at least two months in advance. It's
a matter of pride for me to be able to know two months early I can do
it, so I don't run into problems.
A month ago we got a new VP, who brought in his own department
manager. The guy looked at the approved vacation, approved by my
direct-line (this guy is my direct-line's supervisor), and came to me.
"You're taking a Friday and a Monday off. Are you sure the team can deal with it? Can't you just take Monday?"
Something that runs Fri-Sun, and he wants me to fly to Dallas and get there around midnight Friday.
I smiled and said, "Well, the tickets and hotel room are already
paid for, and my conference pass is already set up and paid for, and
I've already arranged for the airport-to-hotel transportation. IT would
be a significant personal financial inconvenience to have to go back on
all of this now, especially considering that it was set up in good
faith."
Didn't gain me his friendship, but didn't lose me my job. Or, may I add, my vacation time.
Name: samezone19
Email: Date: Wed May 2 13:14:32 2001
Comment: >If you don't like my opinion, you can fuck off.
I don't like your opinion. But this is getting silly. If you want
an libel/slanderfest/slugathon, go to FC. If you're looking for company
names (when a submission contains them), or principles (when a
submission doesn't contain them), hang around here. What's the big
deal? Why does every site have to be like FC? I'd go nuts if there were
hundreds of thousands of teenagers running around here, naming their
company names, their pet toads, their weenies - whatever. Different
site, different stuff.
Mail yourself copies of ALL of your work product, even if it's just a weekly update or a teeny graphic or WHATEVER.
It's called a PORTFOLIO, and I'm finding that more and more
potential employers are impressed when you show em real work product
versus a bulletpoint on a resume.
And if your company makes you sign any "nondisclosure" stuff just
make sure you black out any incriminating info....they can't stop you
from showing work samples in most cases unless you work for the fucking
XFiles unit of the FBI or somesuch.
Name: majorhack
Email:majorhack@yahoo.com Date: Wed May 2 12:52:51 2001
Comment: Uhm, yes...I realize this isn't FC.
Is there any *good* reason why you have a chip on your shoulder.
If you don't like my opinion, you can fuck off.
Name: samezone19
Email: Date: Wed May 2 12:46:13 2001
Comment: This isn't fucked company... you got a problem with that, pal?
Name: majorhack
Email:majorhack@yahoo.com Date: Wed May 2 12:43:38 2001
Comment: The company name is critical.
How successful would fuckedcompany be if they didn't list the name of the company that was fucked?
Name: bongwater
Email: Date: Wed May 2 12:37:24 2001
Comment: a sad but all too common event nowadays. however, the author gives sage advice. good luck to him.
Name: dardan
Email: Date: Wed May 2 12:37:03 2001
Comment:
majorhack: we really need a (different) site with this blacklist, from
legit & disgrunted ex-employees (...other than newgroup postings)
anyone up to that?
as far as layoffs go, every company has a bottom line & we're
the Red-shirted crew members from the old Star Trek: exploitable &
expendable. this is why folks like Matthew Saroff are right: grab that
cash!
Name: samezone19
Email: Date: Wed May 2 12:29:07 2001
Comment:
majorhack, if the submitter doesn't submit a company name, we don't
list it. My suggestion is for you not to waste your own time either -
go read Business 2.0 if you're bored here.
Name: majorhack
Email:majorhack@yahoo.com Date: Wed May 2 12:27:05 2001
Comment: Why do you people never list the company name? What good does it do us (as a warning?) if we don't know who the culprit is?
What lesson does it teach the company if they don't feel the
backlash of hiring for a position they had no intention of keeping
after 2.5 months.
Post the company name, or don't waste our time.
Name: MasterPo
Email: Date: Wed May 2 12:20:00 2001
Comment: I wish I had a dollar for every time I inquired about the pay or
comp time for OT and was told "That's your job!" or read the riot act
for not being a professional team player. :-(
Name: pine user
Email: Date: Wed May 2 12:13:55 2001
Comment: >Make yourself indespensible. This includes withholding information that might be used to train your replacement.
This is a good point. One of my favorite dot-com stories has to do
with the clueless company who sealed a deal to license their kick-ass
software, realized it didn't need a staff anymore, and fired all the
developers on Friday.
On Monday, with all the geeks gone, the CTO tried to locate their
prize-winning multimillion software. Not in the dev folder. Hmm. Not on
the tape backup. Double hmm. A bunch of rifling through desk drawers.
Nothing.
The last developer out had simply done what any good Net grunt does
- delete all his personal stuff from the server. Which happened to
include the compiled file the CEO/CTO were going to sell to make them
multi-millionaires at the expense of the crew who had created it.
Of course, the software never was delivered to the buyer, so the company failed a few weeks later.
The developer still has a copy on a floppy, and it's quite a conversation piece.
Name: Matthew Saroff
Email:msaroff@pobox.com Date: Wed May 2 12:00:46 2001
Comment: As a long technical contractor, I have to say that we are all temps, it's just less honest on the direct side.
Things to protect yourself:
* It's about money. If the pay and benefits are not up to snuff, don't go there.
* Loyalty is reciprocal. If they are assholes, they deserve no respect for you.
* Even if your boss is a good guy, his boss is an asshole.
* Make yourself indespensible. This includes withholding information that might be used to train your replacement.
* Time is money. Pay me, give me comp time, or I'm going home to play with my daughter and teach her to write her name.
