Ghost Sites: This Page is No Longer in Service
NetSlaves: Horror Stories of Working the Web
| the mission
| the media kit | advertising
| submit your story | steve_baldwin@hotmail.com
combat manual | interviews | between the lies | open source | shut up! award
I Wanted to Cry (After Receiving a 2 Percent Raise)
Posted Tue May 1 09:50:59 2001 by sbaldwin

By Chi Lambda

I wanted to cry. I'm a man, damn it! I haven't cried in three years. But today was different, because I had disillusioned myself into thinking that I was owed something by my company.

I'm a Webmaster, or Web designer, or Web developer. (Would someone please define these goddamn job titles!) Well, whatever I'm called, I know that I was the first to come into this company that I work for and create a corporate Web site that contained their entire catalogue of materials in an updated, revised, and easily accessible format, instead of the FrontPage-made crap they had someone do before me.

I interviewed for my current position exactly six months ago. Today was my performance review with my manager; a time to assess what we've done and where we want to go. It was a good meeting; I respect her very much, and believe in her philosophy of what good work is. The review took an hour and a half. Fifteen minutes prior to meeting with her, I jotted notes down on a small piece of paper notes listing my accomplishments, my frustrations, my hopes, and other things related to how I perceive myself here.

Basically, I was hoping for a decent pay raise, thinking that what I was originally offered was the salary for someone with no experience in this company. Then, if the employee passed the half-year mark, the "real" salary would be granted. I had also hoped for stock options from the company, but the board of directors recently decided not to offer them to those that are not at the managerial level; "the value of the stock is too low to be much of an incentive," is how one of the founders recently put it. I also wanted to get some pension benefits. Oh, and I really hoped for a company car too.

The hour and a half passed quickly with my manager, after which she pulled out a contract for me to sign employing me for another half year. Upon discussing the situation with her boss, she told me that I would be getting pension benefits, and that in six-months time, I would be entitled to a two-percent pay raise.

It was here that I wanted to cry.

(I'll be taking the bus for a while longer too.)

Last night on television, a very prominent high-tech company -- in my neck of the woods, at least -- shocked a lot of people in this industry by announcing that they would lay off six percent of their workforce.

Goddamn you Year 1999, you spoiled me rotten.

After a few minutes, the fly-hitting-the-windshield-feeling of not getting a pay raise, nor a company car, started to subdue enough that I began to realize how fucking lucky I am. I still have my job. My salary (which is OK) has not been reduced, and I am still a valued employee who has projects yet to be worked on.

Telling my wife will be difficult. We would like to have a child soon, and we wanted to get a car, and wanted to move into a nicer apartment, and buy more stuff, and... you know.

But the more I think about it, the more I realize how fortunate I am that I'm not packing up my personal belongings from my desk, and sending out my last e-mails to fellow coworkers, nor thinking how I'm going to pay the methodically on-time bills that come each month.

I'm still working, and feeling needed. I guess, that from all possible worlds, this one isn't too bad.

(The writer, a member of www.poochkiss.com, would like to humbly dedicate this article to those who have lost their jobs in the Internet industry, and sincerely wish them the best of luck on the road ahead.)
 
Posted Comments:post a comment!
Name: Email:

Comment:



Name: raghu
Email: chromosome@indya.com
Date: Mon May 21 07:48:57 2001
Comment: hey! i relly wish you all well. serious. out here in india, there are folks who are facing the heat with the IT recession. jeez, that's bad. yeah, i did feel a bit odd about the kind of moneys happening in the new economy. but as a memeber of the old econoy, i guess you guys deserved the money just because the kind of hours put and the amount of risks you folks took was huge.
at this our of yours where things do not look bright, allow me to make a final statement. remember newton's 3rd law. it works.
rags

Name: Terri
Email: sillybisquits@msn.com
Date: Sun May 20 15:26:22 2001
Comment: You wanted to cry??? Because you didn't get a car? Give me a big fucking break....WAAAAGGGHH!! I was not at all enlightened with your "oh I am so grateful" speech. You know what? I got my papers yesterday, and guess what, I DID CRY!!! Why? Because I have been going to work everyday with my ass in the air, not expecting anything positive but keeping my job as folks are being laid off all around me, while management plays golf for team building days. What are you whining about? I am really offended that you had the audacity to post your ad, people in here are in pain. i came here today because I am still spinning in circles over what happened yesterday, in hopes of finding fellow folks feeling the same, and I saw the title of "I wanted to cry"...I am a female, and I have been crying, then I read you ad, about dancing in the dandelions. I am wondering what I will do to live when I have used up my savings (meager), compensation, (more meager), and will be forced to live on unemployement scraps and handouts from friends, if I am lucky and IF they keep their jobs. And you are wondering why you didn't get a car? Thanks for sharing your glee.

Name:
Email:
Date: Thu May 10 14:12:42 2001
Comment: The most important factor in career success isn't who you know (which can help), or your degree (are you kidding?), but timing

Name: Doug
Email: mindless_jargon@mindspring.com
Date: Fri May 4 16:39:21 2001
Comment: All that I expect from a company is a paycheck and the promised benefits. I am rarely disappointed. All those other things? I ain't ever seen them. Those are for the golden boys.

Name: bob
Email: pale_13@usa.net
Date: Fri May 4 16:27:13 2001
Comment: huh?

Name:
Email:
Date: Thu May 3 21:31:51 2001
Comment: When you are rich you are better looking, your jokes are funnier and you are a lot more popular get on the programmme as you fucking american tossers say

Name: ebitch
Email: ebitch@netslaves.com
Date: Thu May 3 13:38:33 2001
Comment: i kind of wish you did cry, right then and there. two percent in six months? what's that about? should i write a letter? i agree with bob. get pregnant. i'll babysit. for coffee.

Name: Wally
Email: wloude@mailexcite.com
Date: Wed May 2 21:49:23 2001
Comment: Family counts in that if your parents are college graduates, you are more likely to become a college graduate. You have a leg up both in expectations and in the ability of your parents to assist in your education. Beyond a very few families, there is little your family connections can do in life. I never worked for or with anyone who ever really knew any of my family. I did select the son of someone I went to college with for a job once, but I didnt realize it till after I hired him and we began to share more detailed background info.

Name: Wally
Email: wloude
Date: Wed May 2 21:45:02 2001
Comment:

Name:
Email:
Date: Wed May 2 15:08:37 2001
Comment: oughtta be. . . dogs can be a bitch. . .

Name: Dave
Email:
Date: Wed May 2 12:48:12 2001
Comment: Luca,
So there's no marksmanship component to that test?

Name: Ertsichek
Email:
Date: Wed May 2 11:13:36 2001
Comment: Re: Luca..btw, what's yer racket?

Name: Ertischek
Email:
Date: Wed May 2 11:06:53 2001
Comment: Re: luca

Thank you for a scintilating defense of my view of the class ridden world out there..remember our prez was a gentleman C at Yale.

Name: luca Brazzi
Email:
Date: Wed May 2 10:50:09 2001
Comment: Ertischek:

- I agree and families are my business.

Those from certain famiies, in the network and willing to play the game will get the farthest most of the time. There are exceptions but on the whole it's more who y'know than what y'know.

College education - in addition to pseudo-egalitarianism's devaluing of the degree as such, it now seems that opportunity is also a function of what school you attend rather than "do you have a degree, can you speak, can you communicate well?". This can be a function of your family or neighborhood as well as your grades.

I want to a state university and someone whose wall sports sheepskin from Harvard or Stanford will beat me out for the job just about all the time. I know some people who graduated from Harvard who need water wings just to play in the shallow end of the gene pool and they'll get the job before my resume even makes it to the "recycling bin".

Before the rise of the pseudo-egalitarian idea of universal college education, attendance at a private college was something of a guarantor that you posessed either superlative intellectual skills or the proper family connections.

That upper class of people has found other means to limit the field.

Did you ever take a postal test?

The test is structured so that you get points as a veteran, and when you score the standard 85-90, your 10 points moves you much nearer to the top of the list. The non vet has to contend with the section of the test which measures the ability to almost instantly memorize addresses and names and place them into appropriate slots. If you have that kind of memory, they want you, whether or not you're a vet. If you don't have that kind of memory, you'd better be a vet.

Name: MasterPo
Email:
Date: Wed May 2 10:44:49 2001
Comment:
Ertischek - Defiantely "success" is relative. If you were one of ten kids living in a 2 room basement apartment and now as an adult you have a nice middle-class house in the burbs, each of your own kids has thier own room, if you want to pat yourself on the back for being a success I won't fault you. OTOH, if you're a futures trader who made $2 million last year and only made $1 million this year, in that context I wouldn't blame you for feeling as not having done as well.

But your original thesis was that success is much more connected to where you're coming from then your own efforts and education. And that isn't so. Sure, parents can give a kid a leg-up but the children have to continue it. Consider the Kennedy's. Thie wealth came from an earlier generation. Ted et al haven't don't squat to add to it. Infact, they squandered a large part of it. True, they aren't paupers but the vast Kennedy fortune isn't nearly as vast as it once was.

Even if we accept your thesis that it's your family background which is more key to your success then your own efforts, then what? What is one to do about it? Short of marrying into a "better" family, from your POV you're stuck.

Tag, back to you.

Name: DJMZ
Email: DJMuzzzE@graffiti.net
Date: Wed May 2 10:00:16 2001
Comment: PRACTICAL ADVICE

I'm still wondering what anyone said to you to make you think you were going to get a company car - especially if you spend all day sitting in front of a computer screen, as opposed to driving around making sales calls. The notes jotted down on a slip of paper were a good start, but not enough. You should keep a ledger full of your goals and accomplishments. Pat yourself on the back at every opportunity. Focus on how you helped the company make or save money. Print it up in a nice format and give your manager a copy ahead of your evaluation. It makes good resume fodder, too. Don't assume you're going to get anything that you don't get in writing on the front end. Check out Nick Corcodilos' "Ask the Headhunter" column archives
http://www.eet.com/columns/ask_the_headhunter/
on EE Times. He has a lot of advice about finding a new job and getting paid what you're worth. Often the advice we don't want to listen to is the advice we need the most.

Name: Ertischek
Email:
Date: Wed May 2 09:49:54 2001
Comment: MasterPo:

Nice to see you buy some of my argument, but the re is larger problem here..to wit..what exactly is success? When you think about it, in most of the recent past, the majority of people have been in positions in large corporations that employ thousands ...insurance companies, banks, industrial giants like steel,coal,utilities, , support industries like transportation, not to mention munipipal and federal government, to name a few major areas of employment. So if you're working away at one of these thousands of jobs, making a decent living, and looking forward to a nice pension, are you a success? Does that word apply here? Many people are in jobs because the older employment model was a more benevelant one..there was and still is an astounding amount of dead wood in all municipal and federal positions, and I'm sure this holds true for many old line companies..companies didn't lay off people at the drop of a stock..that all started after the fall of communism in the early 90s. Why I'm not sure..But the basic issue here is a person's "success" is based upon the relationship that he/she has with a company and what role they play within the company's needs and strategies Its complicated..Many people's "success" and financial well being depends greatly on these factors..Obviously I'n not talking about self generators like salespeople or small business owners..but more traditional employment arrangements. One could argue that the return of the enterprenurial model of success is a throwback to pre-corporate paternalism with all the risks that entails..comments?

Name: MasterPo
Email:
Date: Wed May 2 09:14:39 2001
Comment:
Ertischek - I agree that success breeds success (in every sense of the word "breed"). NTL, I don't see how you can honestly believe that success is more a factor of the family you come from than your education and efforts. Sure, the kids of people like Gates and Trump will almost certainly be millionares in thier own lives, but that doesn't mean one of Gate's or Trump's employees won't rise one day to be a millionare too. If you're counting on an education to be a "Pass GO and collect $200" ticket, you're missing the point. No one is going to pay you big bucks just for a degree. But the degree combined with other factors and your effort does make the difference in a great many cases. Also, realize that we're talking about earnings over a person's life time. At any given point in thier life they may or may not be doing better than at any other time. If 10 years ago you compared my earnings to some of my non-college friends they were creaming me. Compare it again today and I'm creaming them (and are more likely to continue beating them in the future).

dardan - Job satisfacyion rarely pays the bills. And, IMO, most people who find great satisfaction in thier work use it as a cruch to make up for something that's lacking in thier personal lives (i.e. relationships). That's not to say one shouldn't like your vocation, but I prefer to look for satisfaction outside the office.

Bostonian - Can I work at your company? :-)

Emily - I think you're talking about the difference between specific product-oriented skills (eg. network security packages) and concepts/theories of subjects. 4-year colleges can't (and IMO shouldn't) teach specific packages. But it's the responsibility of the student to grasp the theory so he/she can apply it in the real world to more rapidly pick up the specific products. Case in point: In college I had to take a course in databases. One conecpt we studied was "dead lock" (aka deadly embrace), the idea that resource A is locked and needs resource B while B is locked and needs A. Thus they're in a stale-mate and nothing happens. Simple enough right? Well, one ealry job I had the DBA's had no clue about it! It took a vendor consultant to explain it to them. And then it was like Moses having given them the tablets from one high. Mean while these were people who claimed to have CS degrees. Obvisouly they spent more time at the bar than in class. The point being they have a degree but haven't really learned the material or how to apply it. Nothing you can do about it.

Name:
Email:
Date: Wed May 2 08:57:04 2001
Comment: Actually, it probably doesn't understand much about "communism" either. . . then again, a lot of people in the U.S. don't understand much about communism, the history of which entails that one must go back a lot further than the 30's. . .

I'll bet it doesn't even grok much about the political climate toward certain immigrant populations seeking work in the U.S. at the time of the Sacco and Vanzetti trial, and you must go back even further. . .

America, land of the free for all, home of the hoplessly politically naive. . .

Name:
Email:
Date: Wed May 2 08:48:06 2001
Comment: StupidGurl666,

that's if you hold the last "nah" for the full half note (presuming you're doing 4/4)

Name: YTBaby
Email:
Date: Wed May 2 07:08:27 2001
Comment:
Capitalist Pig: Have you actually READ any of the articles on this site? Or did you just have your mummy read the site title to you and then made assumptions about the content?

Name:
Email:
Date: Tue May 1 23:42:23 2001
Comment: >quit bitching/whining, and good old-fashioned "elbow grease."

Shut up, bend over, and take it until you die from the pain. That's a really strong mantra - think I'll become a capitalist... it sounds fun.

Name:
Email:
Date: Tue May 1 23:23:25 2001
Comment: Attention all netslaves communists!

Under a communist system, where is the incentive to go the extra mile and create real wealth that increases everybody's standard of living? Remember the communist credo: everybody contributes according to their ability, but only receives compensation according to their needs. A perfect recipe for apathy and stagnation.

Regarding the woes of your poor "netslaves": the bottom line is that exploitable people will be exploited. That's the law of the jungle. It's up to them to take affirmative steps to increase their lot in life...learn a marketable skill, do a better job negotiating, quit bitching/whining, and good old-fashioned "elbow grease."

Regarding unions: it is a well-known fact that unions are corrupt fronts for organized crime. Don't you remember the Teamsters and the Gambino family?

Long live capitalism!

Name: Kernel Panic
Email:
Date: Tue May 1 21:37:33 2001
Comment: My little brother has a C.S. Degree I don't.
Most (all) of the companies I've ever worked for as a software (web) developer couldn't care less about a degree. Of course I tend to gravitate to "bottom line" type companies. We both agree that education is the best thing for one's future, if one can swing it. I think it all boils down to the "grossly overqualified" mentality. If you have a C.S. degree...you'll have an advantage when applying for that next javascripting job.

Name: me
Email:
Date: Tue May 1 20:37:53 2001
Comment: 'Bored' and passing through. Sunday Bloody Sunday. I enjoy listening/reading politicians words. Like Emily they convey so little using Soooo many words ... us simple beings are just completely lost in it.

Name: Emily Dresner-Thornber
Email: emily@netslaves.com
Date: Tue May 1 20:33:56 2001
Comment: Here's the technical difference between sci and eng:

Engineering school is involved with a much lower-level of the computer. It's electrical engineering light -- and well schooled CompEngs can do a stand-in for entry-level EE if the need be. Classes revolve around physics, chemistry, material science, mathematics (for diffeq and fourier analysis), circuit design, digital logic, transistor analysis, firmware, computer architecture, and some EE concentration. In my case, that's digital signal processing. A computer engineer is largely focused on the kernel level on down. They learn about things like skew times, cache design, bus latencies and j/k flip-flops.

Sci is involved with the higher end of things: algorithm analysis, high level languages, software methodology, OOD, and verification languages. Computer science is more concerned with the very highest level of the computer: how can we design a good algorithm for building groups on a network, how do we parallelize this particular problems, how do we write a better command interpreter. Computer science also encompasses AI, natural languages, human-computer interaction, and software design techniques.

Computer science is involved in getting the computer to do new things in an abstract sense. Engineering is involved in getting the computer to do new things by standing in a bunny suit in a clean room. Although there is overlap, in that they both have to learn programming languages, in the end they're different beasts.

Name: SeriouslyTho
Email:
Date: Tue May 1 20:20:01 2001
Comment: >>This is my cue to be a real asshole about the difference between the computer scientists and the computer engineers. :)<<

Assholem open to debate. The real issue though is: you failed to illuminate the difference between comp. sci. and comp. eng. And you promised to do do. Wah, Wah, Wah, Wah, Wah.

Name: StupidGurl666
Email:
Date: Tue May 1 20:06:23 2001
Comment: Emily

He He - you just made my day - my face has been itching to smile, but well you know what boring meeting are like?

>>This is my cue to be a real asshole about the difference between the computer scientists and the computer engineers. :) I'm an elitist jerk, and I'm sitting on two engineering degrees, so nah.<<

surely that should be: "nah, nah, nah, nah, nah"?


Name: Emily Dresner-Thornber
Email: emily@netslaves.com
Date: Tue May 1 18:50:56 2001
Comment: This is my cue to be a real asshole about the difference between the computer scientists and the computer engineers. :) I'm an elitist jerk, and I'm sitting on two engineering degrees, so nah.

I believe that, to make a call if education makes a difference, it depends on the discipline, the industry, and the position in question. Yes, there are many positions where experience trumps education every time. I offer up Exhibit A, the UNIX System Administration. No amount of wonky algorithm and linear algebra classes are going to teach someone the best way to deal with security issues, or how to patch a kernel, or how to crank out shell scripts. It's the same thing with designing a LAN -- sure, you KNOW about minor things like magnetism or inductance from theory, but you're aware of what happens when you have too far to go between point A and point B across coax.

On the other hand, I wouldn't want someone "self-taught out of book" to be designing firmware in embedded devices. I don't want someone who "learned by experience" to be designing the controller unit on my microwave. Or worse, I don't want someone self-taught building medical equipment. I want someone with formal training, who understands the foo behind low level memory management and low level communication protocols, and who understands the product from electrons on up.

I'll readily admit that you don't need a degree to crank out database front ends in Visual Basic, but the closer the job walks toward electrical engineering or mechanical engineering, the degrees become essential. Face it, I know foo that a computer science major doesn't know -- largely about circuits, digital logic, physics, applications of diffeq, material science, and putting together firmware. It allows me to apply for all kinds of funky positions.

But, for most jobs out there, this stuff isn't essential, and the 10 years of experience will trump the CS degree.

Name: B Labor
Email:
Date: Tue May 1 18:39:49 2001
Comment: Re: Bostonian

U must live on that "outside" planet

Name: Bostonian
Email:
Date: Tue May 1 17:26:21 2001
Comment: I don't understand the "long hours, asshole bosses & inept corporations" comment of dardan. I left my job working for a large, national engineering firm to work in the software industry in large part to avoid things like asshole bosses and long hours. It has worked marvelously. I have better pay, nicer environment, and have yet to work any overtime. Is there a significant difference between Software Development and Web Development industries? Maybe I am not really a part of the world that you folks are talking about?

Name: dardan
Email:
Date: Tue May 1 17:22:25 2001
Comment: I agree about those "fly by night schools". Folks there are definitely cranked out to fill positions & only want a high tech salary.

Name: dardan
Email:
Date: Tue May 1 17:18:57 2001
Comment: So, does the equation go soemthing like:

targeted education = better employment (opportunities) = greater income ?

The problem is that there's a lot people graduating now for that last part of the equation ($). I've worked with many who probably did spend "nights at the fraternity house and your days sleeping it off."

Most of us (formally schooled or self-taught, or both) got into the biz not exclusively for the cash. But with long hours, asshole bosses & inept corporations, its probably the only that's keeping a bit sane.

Does anyone ever have "job satisfaction" anymore?

Name: Ertischek
Email:
Date: Tue May 1 17:13:29 2001
Comment: MasterPo:

The part of your argument I didn't buy was the "throughout history" premise..but even today, if you look at the research, you will find an amazing correlation between personal success and family background..maybe one day it will be different but that's not what the studies show..

Name:
Email:
Date: Tue May 1 17:10:37 2001
Comment: Wow a hole bunch of people who never went for a CS degree. I went to a school that was light on math and science for cs majors so i only had to go through defeq and linear algebra, as well as some advanced physics.....Im also not woried about my job, am very aprreciated, make good money...ect ect. If those of you who are pretending to be devlopers/in the computer feild actualy new some thing about softwear enginering, my life would be so much easier. Advice to Chi Lambda, if you want a scure/decent job in this feild, go back to school, and learn how to program, and stay away from those fly by night schools that will teach you c++ or visual basic in a few months, there is a big difrence between that and programing.

Name: Matthew Saroff
Email: msaroff@pobox.com
Date: Tue May 1 17:08:45 2001
Comment: ignore this, I posted to the wrong group. This was to go to the labor one. Sorry.

Name: Matthew Saroff
Email: msaroff@pobox.com
Date: Tue May 1 17:06:58 2001
Comment: BTW, if you figure that Eisner works 2080 hours/year, like the rest of us, he gets about $78/second. To put this in perspective, when he takes a leak, it costs Disney:
Cost Time Activity
$156 2 Get Out of Chair
$390 5 Walk To Bathroom
$78 1 Open Door
$78 1 Walk to Urinal
$78 1 Unzip
$1,170 15 Pee
$78 1 Shake it off
$78 1 Zip
$78 1 Walk to sink
$780 10 Wash Hands
$390 5 Dry Hands
$78 1 Walk to door
$78 1 Open Door
$390 5 Walk to Desk
$156 2 Sit Down
===========================
$4,056 Total

Name: Bostonian
Email:
Date: Tue May 1 16:56:34 2001
Comment: Absolutely, education is an important ingredient to success, no matter how you define success. However, education may not be formal, and plenty of uneducated folks do better than lots of educated folks. Case in point: I worked with a guy with a PhD in the design of concrete structures. We were testing a large concrete containment building, and we were surrounded by union laborers who worked at the site. It was Christmas-time, and all of the union guys were comparing year end salaries. The job that we were working on was part of a long term "emergency", so we and the union guys were putting in very long hours. Due to union rules regarding overtime and holday pay, they were all making much more than either of us "professionals" were. In many cases, the shop guys made more than twice my salary. We were there working with them for about five months, and put in the same hours as they, but we weren't union...

Name: MasterPo
Email:
Date: Tue May 1 16:52:11 2001
Comment:
Ertischek - What are your numbers for those moving out of low-income into middle class? Clearly the middle class has swelled in the last 30-40 years (and not just because Washington keeps redefining the income range). And the number of millionares is the highest ever and expected to keep growing. If you say coming from money/success is the only way to gety money/success then where did all these people come from??

What you are describing is almost a feudal society which is definately not the way America works. If you're looking for a promise or guarantee of success, sorry you won't find it in this life.

Class has not as much to do with it as you think. Many middle-class and higher people today came from very poor/low-class families. If they followed your POV they'd still be like that. But through effort and education they did better for themselves and, just as importantly, setup their children to do even better. Maybe not as many are pullign themselves up as could (should?) but they are doing it.

Name: Ertischek
Email:
Date: Tue May 1 16:41:50 2001
Comment: Re: throughout history those with a formal education (in a productive subject) end up making more money than those without.

Look let's do this again..up until about the 60S AND 70s, very few people in this country had a formal college education..college was not avaialable to every schmoe who wanted a degree..Go back further and you'll see how exclusive formal college education was..and believe it or not, it was usually available to those who could afford it..sure there were state schools an such but look at the numbers. It was a self fullfilling prophecy. College is where future leaders were groomed. You can't diccount the class issue here..also researchers are always amazed to find how much of personal wealth and success seems to depend on family position..we just don't talk about class in America but it's there still..comments?

Name: Ertischek
Email:
Date: Tue May 1 16:31:18 2001
Comment: At this point I'm not sure who is agreeing or disagreeing with who to what Sort of your typical IT Meeting situation yes? But it passes the time..

Name: MasterPo
Email:
Date: Tue May 1 16:30:37 2001
Comment:
Ertsichek - Don't fall victim to the "Willie Lowman" way of thinking that everything in life is who you know, not what you know.

I totally agree that education in and of itself will only get you so far. There are many other factors, some fair some not, that come into play. And clearly a PhD doesn't translate into as much $$$ as an MBA (in the shorter haul anyway). NTL, taken as a whole and seen over the course of one's lifetime, it is indisputable that throughout history those with a formal education (in a productive subject) end up making more money than those without.

Name: Bostonian
Email:
Date: Tue May 1 16:19:25 2001
Comment: Ertischek: Actually, not true at all. In fact, it has been shown that real income diminishes in many cases when pursuing receiving a PhD. Further, as you point out, the majority of those who do exceptionally well are those who start their own businesses. It is fairly uncommon for an individual who spent the time and energy achieving a degree to also go on to run their own business. Generally, the things that make one a good student are not the same things that make a good entreprenuer.

Name: realitycheck
Email:
Date: Tue May 1 16:17:56 2001
Comment: Joe, how on earth did you manage to inerpret what I wrote as suggesting in any way that web developers were the only programmers who wrote applications of any kind?


Name: Matthew Saroff
Email: msaroff@pobox.com
Date: Tue May 1 16:16:54 2001
Comment: There is a truism to the labor market (I've been contracting for the past 9 years).

It's the money. Everything eles is bullshit.

While it is true that "the money" might involve non-salary items, like a health plan, vacation time, 401(k) match, etc., everything else is an illusion.

My wife just lost the best job she ever had. She still works at the same place (a troubled mismanaged charter school in TX), but her boss has been replaced with the psycho-bitch-from-hell.

Her salary and benefits are in her contract. The work environment is not.

Name: Ertsichek
Email:
Date: Tue May 1 16:16:09 2001
Comment: Re: Throughtout the history of human civilation the vast majority of those who do better have a formal education in a specific field.

So not true..the vast majority who do better usually have a huge socioeconomic advantage, not to mention probably great family connections.


Name: Ertischek
Email:
Date: Tue May 1 16:13:20 2001
Comment: Re: Education and income are not related

MasterPo, my point has been misconstrued..The issue is not the correlation of education and income, but aility to thrive in the work world despite the requisite degrees..or school credentials..so much of work success has to do with intangibles that are not taught in textbooks..look around..Microsoft execs hire kids they see at airports working on laptops..and of course, everybody hires their girlfrind/so/cousin..Where does that fit in? Lotsa intangible to success..

Name: MasterPo
Email:
Date: Tue May 1 16:04:38 2001
Comment:
Bostonian - "True! Education and income are not closely correlated!"

On the whole you're incorrect. We all know people how have done very well financially and career wise in life with little formal education. Ironically these are usually people who started their own businesses.

NTL, throughtout the history of human civilation the vast majority of those who do better have a formal education in a specific field. Education is as much what you put in as you get out. If you take BA in Modern Dance with a minor in Nordic Folklore then what the heck do you expect in life?! Like wise, you can get a BS in CS and have no clue because you spent your nights at the fraternity house and your days sleeping it off.

But statistically if you graph education to income then you always see a direct relationship.

Name: Ertischek
Email:
Date: Tue May 1 16:03:41 2001
Comment: Re: I have at tmies had I have at tmies had to bear horrible indignities due to fear of unemployment.

Well I've at times had to bear horrible indignities due to fear of EMPLOYMENT.

Name: Joe Calico
Email:
Date: Tue May 1 16:00:21 2001
Comment: Funny, a developer is a programmer, and they do not write applications?

And web developers are the only professionals who write applications?

Wow, what have I been doing for the past 10 years?

It's all distributed computing, which has been around for some time.

A "web developer" probably does not know the first thing about uml, class diagrams, state-transition diagrams, nested states ect... Yeah piss away the past 15 years of CS and you would be flipping burgers or selling insurance. Most self appointed gurus know nothing about fundamental software engineering.

"A developer is a programmer, and a web developer typically writes applications that run on a web server and are accessed over the public Internet or an intranet. "

Name: MasterPo
Email:
Date: Tue May 1 16:00:14 2001
Comment:
Everytime I've gone to the manager or VP to re-negotiate my position based on some new info that has come to light I've always gotten the "We'll see" line. I should know better by now but I still try.

The final insult is when nothing happens and I leave they take it like a personal insult.

Name: Bostonian
Email:
Date: Tue May 1 15:59:14 2001
Comment: M. Saroff: True, a BS in CS may not have the requisite training in traditional science and higher math, but I should hope that your average graduate student in CS would. As I came from a traditional math and sciences background, I had such exposure as a student and as an engineer. I found that knowledge to be of great benefit when taking classes such as Signal Processing and Linear Algebra.

Ertischek: True! Education and income are not closely correlated!

dardan: Sadly true... I have at tmies had to bear horrible indignities due to fear of unemployment.

Name: dardan
Email:
Date: Tue May 1 15:33:00 2001
Comment: Valid point, Bostonian.

On another note, 2% is a slap in the face. Even start-up CEO's don't take a small increase or a pay cut when times are tough. (Generally, this is my experience, maybe its different elsewhere.)

Having a job versus dignity. Its not an easy choice, for sure.

Name: Ertischek
Email:
Date: Tue May 1 15:28:55 2001
Comment: Re: Because they don't understand what is going on in the real world, they tend to come up with bad solutions.

Number of courses I've taken in computer-related stuff - 0

Number of 0s in my salary..after the 1, 5.

There at least TWO kinds of education
- George Ade



Name: B Labor
Email:
Date: Tue May 1 15:23:22 2001
Comment: Re: Said he had to sign a bunch of forms to decline the raise.

This is just too good.. "okay loser, bend over and tell us how deep, but first, fill out these forms.." What a hoot.

Name: Matthew Saroff
Email: msaroff@pobox.com
Date: Tue May 1 14:24:57 2001
Comment: "...another to write C code to read and analyze high speed vibration data in real time."

I would never use someone who just had a degree in CS to do that. They might have the programming, but they probably don't have the math and science.

Most CS majors that I've dealt with have seen calc, physics, etc. as useless stuff that gets in the way of get a computer degree.

Because they don't understand what is going on in the real world, they tend to come up with bad solutions. Simplifying a problem require an understanding of the underlying principles of that problem.

Name: Chi Lambda
Email: info@poochkiss.com
Date: Tue May 1 14:13:18 2001
Comment: Look what we've got here!

Before going further, I want to say thanks to Netslaves for publishing my article.

OK, the main reason for staying with my current company is that I feel I need at least a year's experience in order to qualify for better paying jobs. Although I did freelance work before this, this place is my first full-time Web-developing experience. I hate freelancing. I want a steady pay-check.

Ah, time will tell as they say....

Name: MasterPo
Email:
Date: Tue May 1 13:41:32 2001
Comment:
My friend's father was given a "whopping" 2% raise in December. After taxes and payroll deductions it came out to only $20 extra a pay check!

He declined it in protest. Said he had to sign a bunch of forms to decline the raise.

Name: Joe Schmoe
Email: jo_schmoe@hotmail.com
Date: Tue May 1 13:29:13 2001
Comment: at my last permanent job, working in the printing industry, my company wasn't (and still isn't) doing so well, so few people got raises. i was apparently valuable enough to them that i *did* get a raise ... almost a 1% increase. aw well, it's the thought that counts, right? (i quit the next month.)

Name: Carl Slater
Email: cslater@videotron.ca
Date: Tue May 1 13:10:13 2001
Comment: >>I?m a Webmaster, or Web designer, or Web developer. (Would someone please define these goddamn job titles!) <<

Just say like I do: Web grunt.

Name: Bostonian
Email:
Date: Tue May 1 13:06:39 2001
Comment: dardan:

It is true that a person with no offical degree may still be fully qualified to do a job. My own father never got his HS Diploma, yet over time learned to program complex logic circuits. However, the likelihood that a degree-holder won't know his/her field is less than that a non-degree-holder will. Especially in technical fields. It is one thing to teach yourself some javascript while authoring a web page, and another to write C code to read and analyze high speed vibration data in real time. While one is no more "worthy" than the other, a person who can manage the latter can probably also manage the former, but not vice~versa. A candidate with an advanced CS degree is much more likely to have attempted both.

Name: MasterPo
Email:
Date: Tue May 1 13:00:23 2001
Comment:
Also, if your former company is public or ever does go public buy a few shares. They can silence you as an employee but they can't silence a shareholder! :-)

Name: Matthew Saroff
Email: mecad1
Date: Tue May 1 12:30:43 2001
Comment: Take anything that is yours, including notes and documentation that might make a successor's job easier, but you boss does not have direct knowledge of.

After this, get back to your boss, and explain that it was made clear to you (even if it wasn't, this is a negociation) that your pay rate for the first six months was based on your probationary status, and the offer is not acceptable. Ask her when she can get back to you with another offer.

Never accept a first offer.

Name: MasterPo
Email:
Date: Tue May 1 12:03:57 2001
Comment:
Chi - Did you express to the manager at your review your dissatisfaction with the raise? Did you speak about what you had anticipated receiving?

No sense pouting about it. They may not give it to you but if they don't know that's what you want you can't really hold it against them for not giving it to you!

Name: realitycheck
Email:
Date: Tue May 1 12:03:28 2001
Comment: If you don't know what a "web developer" is, then it's probably not what you do. A developer is a programmer, and a web developer typically writes applications that run on a web server and are accessed over the public Internet or an intranet.

On the other hand, any Front Page neophite can call himself a "webmaster" or "web designer", as the terms imply no related schooling or technical competence.

Name: Teflon
Email:
Date: Tue May 1 11:54:25 2001
Comment: re: I was owed something by my company

Haw haw.. Open your eyes Jack

Name: saltmien
Email:
Date: Tue May 1 11:37:52 2001
Comment: They obviously don't give a shit about you. They'll probably fire you next week. Start looking for a better job with better pay. Sure the markets bad, but theres no harm in looking.

Name: dardan
Email:
Date: Tue May 1 11:29:22 2001
Comment: Chi, poor Chi,

I started in this biz 5 years ago as a multimedia developer (what else do you do with a BA in film studies?). My first job was creating web applets. Dammit, it was programming, plain & simple. But because we don't have that comp. sci./eng. degree, we get boned big time.

Granted, there's very little comparison. (Please don't attack me!) You want $$$, then do what I did: go back to school *before* those kids start coming!

Yes, quit & go somewhere else instead of crying (but it may make you feel better :) ). If you are like how I was, don't stay silent. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Do your job well, don't work o/t & threaten to quit (with something else lined up). If they appreciate you, they'll listen. If not, give them about, oh, 30 minutes notice!

Name: bob
Email: pale_13@usa.net
Date: Tue May 1 11:16:46 2001
Comment: Chi Lambda,

Knock her up!

You will never have enough money for kids... nor will you ever have too little. Two years ago when my wife got pregnant, I was making about half what I am now, and we didn't see at first how we could make it work. Well, we had our daughter, and things worked out.

Besides, once the little one comes along ad smiles at you for the first time and says "Da-Da," you'll wonder why you didn't have kids sooner.

Name: steve gilliard
Email: sgilliard@netslaves.com
Date: Tue May 1 11:16:06 2001
Comment: Fuck the gratitude, look for another job. A two percent raise? Oh yay. Work for the government, they usually get 4 percent.

You can bet the founders have plenty of options, which they will exercise on the drop of a dime. Don't believe that shit. Two percent raise? With any luck, you won't be there to collect it.


Name: MasterPo
Email:
Date: Tue May 1 10:12:16 2001
Comment:
I'm confused - If he's an an employee why is he signing employment contracts?

ps- Start looking for another job.