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How to Read a 10Q: Webvan
Posted Sat Apr 28 17:07:06 2001 by sbaldwin

By Steve Gilliard

Source Document: http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1092657/0001012870-01-001485.txt

BUSINESS

Webvan is an Internet retailer offering delivery of
consumer products through an innovative proprietary
business design that integrates its Webstore, distribution
facility and delivery system. Webvan's current product
offerings are principally focused on food, non-prescription
drug products and general merchandise including housewares,
pet supplies, consumer electronics and entertainment
products and books.

In other words a supermarket. The company was designed in a fit of arrogance to compete with the hundreds of thousands of supermarkets in America. The supermarket which is one of the prime achievements of American capitalism. Fresh goods of every description from around the world. Why would anyone pass up the supermarket, which is a social center and appeals to our basic hunter/gatherer sense? Yes, delivery services could work, if they were part of a supermarket's supply chain. But to set up a seperate one is to invite disaster.

BROWSING

Webvan's Webstore displays a store directory which allows
visitors to browse through all the categories of
products Webvan offers. The categories are intuitively
organized into discrete units and enable the user to
drill down from general to more specific categories.
The browsing tool also enables customers to see all
products in a particular category before making a
selection, similar to scanning the shelves of a
neighborhood store. In addition, each item on the site
has an image and many grocery products have
nutritional information attached, which further
enhances the user experience.

You mean like shopping? But unlike the Stop and Shop down the block from my sister's place, I can't buy a cup of coffee and a donut or pick my own watermelon. They won't have Legal Seafood Chowder either. The modern supermarket has changed to offer a range of goods to appeal to the shopper's impulse buying instinct.

Webvan's facilities are comprised of distribution
centers of approximately 350,000 square feet as well
as customer fulfillment centers (or CFCs) of
approximately 100,000-125,000 square feet acquired
pursuant to the HomeGrocer transaction. Each facility
is a clean, climate-controlled building segmented into
separate ambient, refrigerated and frozen areas that
store grocery items at optimal temperatures. Webvan's
facilities are located generally in industrially zoned
areas, which typically have lower real estate costs
than traditional supermarkets located in commercial
areas.

The larger distribution centers are located in
Oakland, California (serving the greater San Francisco
Bay area and Sacramento markets), Suwanee, Georgia
(serving the greater Atlanta market) and Carol Stream,
Illinois (serving the greater Chicago market). The
smaller CFC's are located in Renton, Washington
(serving, in conjunction with a facility located in
Wilsonville, Oregon, the greater Seattle and Portland
markets), Fullerton and Carson, California (serving,
in conjunction with facilities in Azusa and Irvine,
California, the greater Los Angeles/Orange County
market) and San Diego, California (serving the greater
San Diego market).

And these areas are supermarket deprived? Have the people of San Diego been starving? Look, any sociologist can tell you that there is more to shopping than getting food. The Saturday ritual of shopping is about getting the family out, stopping for fast food, running errands. It is family time. How were these markets picked? Seattle? Atlanta? Why not New York and Boston and Washington, areas where people are busy and need delivery services.

COMPETITION

Local, regional, and national food chains, independent
food stores and markets, as well as online grocery
retailers comprise Webvan's principal competition as
an on-line grocery retailer, although Webvan also faces
substantial competition from convenience stores,
liquor retailers, membership warehouse clubs,
specialty retailers, supercenters, and drugstore
chains.

So who doesn't it compete with? Crack dealers and gun stores? This is everyone from Kroger and Piggly Wiggly to CVS and Rite Aid to Wal-Mart and K-Mart. They are taking on American retailing.

As of December 31, 2000, Webvan had approximately
4,476 full-time employees consisting of approximately
129 in software development, approximately 509 in
operations, administration and customer service,
approximately 133 in merchandising and marketing and
approximately 3,705 at Webvan's facilities. None of
Webvan's employees are represented by a labor union.

This is an enormous staff, most of whom do scut work. And the supermarket business is unionized. You can bet if the company survives, they will be hit with a massive unionization drive. But that's like guessing which airplanes the Japanese would have flown in 1946. Irrelevant when the share price is $0.12.

United Food & Commercial Workers International Union
Unfair Labor Practice Complaint: Filed January 31, 2001
with the National Labor Relations Board. UFCW alleges
that Webvan maintains illegal rules that restrict the
employees' right to organize and support and join a
union. UFCW seeks equitable relief against Webvan in
the form of a discontinuation of the alleged wrongful
activity. Webvan has responded to the charges and
intends to vigorously defend its case against the
UFCW.

UNION ACTIVITIES AT WEBVAN FACILITIES COULD ADVERSELY
AFFECT EMPLOYEE MORALE, PRODUCTIVITY, OPERATING COSTS
AND THE ABILITY OF WEBVAN TO FULFILL AND DELIVER
ORDERS.

Webvan has experienced union solicitation
activities at several of its facilities and has been
the subject of unfair labor practice complaints filed
with the National Labor Relations Board. Webvan
expects to continue to experience unionizing
activities at one or more of its facilities. These
unionizing activities may have an adverse impact on
employee morale and productivity and could potentially
lead to work stoppages which would adversely impact
our ability to fulfill or deliver customer orders. In
addition, the success of any of these unionizing
activities at one or more facilities could result in
higher operating costs, reduced operational
flexibility, and reduced employee morale and
productivity, which could have a material adverse
effect on Webvan's net sales and results of
operations.

Like I said, a major union target. This is a unionized industry. Drivers, store employees, all union members and the reason is simple: it's hard work and often 24 hour work.There is no way Webvan could avoid a massive UFCW drive. Nor should it have. If their plan includes avoiding unionization over the life of the company, they will face a brutal shock.

Since its inception, Webvan has incurred significant
losses, and as of December 31, 2000, Webvan had an
accumulated deficit of $612.7 million. Webvan
incurred net losses of $453.3 million in the twelve
months ended December 31, 2000, including a
restructuring charge of $40.8 million related to the
HomeGrocer acquisition, and $144.6 million and $12.0
million in the years ended December 31, 1999 and 1998,
respectively.

Webvan's facilities do not currently operate at
or near their originally designed capacity. Webvan
does not expect any of its facilities to operate at
designed capacity in the foreseeable future. Webvan
cannot assure you that any facility will ever operate
at or near its designed capacity.

Which means they were designed very badly to begin with. Webvan occupies 350,000 square foot facilities in San Francisco, Sacramento, Atlanta, and Chicago. 100,000 sq ft facilities are in Fullerton, Los Angeles and San Diego. Their underutilization represents an amazing waste of space and resources. And the long term leases don't help matters either. They lost $453.3 million in ONE year? One? How? And they thought they could run 26 of these monsters? Who was going to pay for it? The Pentagon?

To meet these challenges, Webvan intends to continue
to invest in marketing and promotions, to maintain
distribution facilities and equipment, and to
efficiently utilize technology and personnel. While
Webvan expects to reduce its rate of operating
expenses on a facility by facility basis, Webvan will
continue to incur substantial operating losses on a
company-wide basis and there can be no assurance that
such reduction in operating expenses will not
adversely impact Webvan's operations and service
levels.

Wouldn't bankruptcy serve everyone better at this point? Allow for a proper sale of facilities and severance? This is an amazing loss of capital in one year. More money than most dotcoms ever had by a factor of ten. When you lose $453m in one year, you have failed. You'll never see profitability. There is no chance of it. The public has seen your product and rejected it. They might be sold to Safeway, or AholdUSA, but these facilities are so large that only a few retailers can use them.

GENERAL AND ADMINISTRATIVE. General and administrative
expenses include costs related to fulfillment and
delivery of products, real estate, technology
operations, equipment leases, merchandising, finance,
customer service and professional services, as well as
non-cash compensation and related expenses. General
and administrative expenses increased to $292.3
million in 2000 from $92.4 million in 1999 and $8.8
million in 1998. Of this $199.9 million increase in
2000 over 1999, $141.3 million pertained to aggregate
distribution center operating expenses for our Bay
Area, Atlanta and Chicago locations, and $35.7 for
HomeGrocer locations following the merger, compared to
only a partial year of the Bay Area operation in the
prior year.

Wow. There was scant evidence that the company was successful in 1999 and now they try to expand. Amazing. Rethinking one's plans is never encouraged in the dotcom set, unless it reeks of desperation.

Why Webvan is Failing

  • No basic knowledge of the sector

    The company made an arrogant assumption that they were a technology business and not a supermarket. They were a supermarket and run by people who had no retailing experience. Consultants, techies, all were made officers or directors. No one who had actual, real world food experience was thought suitable enough to become an officer. Just because you can sell books does not mean you can sell raw food.

    Food retailing is not an easy business and the margins are thin. Even with good management, you can lose money. Webvan had bad management. George Shaheen, a former consultant, had less experience in the food business than a bar owner. It is hard to make money with food. No one at Webvan understood that.

    My friends own several bars. Every time they have tried to serve food, they give up after a couple of months. The profit margins are so low, and the hassles so intense, that it easier to go with the margins on booze, which range in 75-150 percent range. In a case of bottles, they charge $4 a beer and buy a case for $12. So, the first three bottles pay for the case, the next three cover operating costs, and the rest is profit. Kegs make even more money. A keg of Bud is $35. You charge $2 a glass. You can sell 112 pints per
    keg. Notice the profit margin at that price. They can give away soda it is so cheap, dollars a syrup container.

    Beer is the profit center, since almost every customer orders a beer. They could sell the beer for $.50 and not lose money. If they only charge for bottled beer, they could give the tap beer away. Most places charge $3-5 a beer. Here's a secret: many of your favorite restaurants stay open because of wine, beer and soda sales.

    Online liquor sales are a minefield. Forget liability issues. Each locality has their own laws and the distributors act on their own. So while the LA Webvan has a wide variety of beer and liquor available, the Chicago Webvan had a meager selection. In New York, liquor stores are the only ones allowed to sell hard liquor, and only Monday through Saturday. New Jersey has a different set of rules, where stores can sell beer, wine and hard liquor seven days a week. When you go into a New York liquor store only wine and hard liquor are for sale. Which is why they tend to be small stores. In New Jersey, you can sell food and ice. You would go nuts trying to serve both markets.

    Why would they add food to that mix, where the profit margins are much lower?

  • Posed a threat to competitors with vast investments

    Royal Ahold's US subsidiary Ahold USA, invested in Peapod, but not in a serious, branded way until this year. They are now planning to tie it to their New England-based Stop and Shop chain and their Midatlantic Giant chains. Priceline had one great idea: pre-pay for food at home. Delivery or pick up could have been arranged, if Webvan had made Ahold a partner from the start. As it was, the whole food supply business has a vested interest in seeing companies with no ties to the industry fail. If Webvan became a player, they could have disrupted key relationships, like Coke and Pepsi's deals with supermarket chains. Those sodas don't get to the front of the store by accident. The local bottlers pay good cash for that privilege. Paying for a banner ad isn't the same thing.

    A glance at their Chicago site shows a selection which includes Corona, Old Milwaukee and Miller High Life, not exactly a primo choice. Not even Old Vienna, for god's sake. The LA store had a decent selection, but here's the problem: obviously the distributors in Chicago were extremely cool to Webvan, while those in LA, the largest beer making center in the US, were going to deal with them. The difference is striking and reflects the problem of national food retailing.

  • Leadership without any serious experience in the sector

    Louis Borders sell books. Books do not expire. Books cannot be eaten. The methods Borders uses to ship books are not the same methods one uses to ship foods. George Shaheen, who's experience in food retailing is basically telling his wife what the maid should pick up, was a lifelong consultant running a retail operation. There is a reason none of the companies which actually run supermarkets decided to go in this business. They didn't see a profitable bottom line here. Common sense dictates the following: if none of your competitors are following you into a space, there is every reason to wonder why. Maybe it's that you're a scary genius, but the odds are that they looked on it and passed.


  • Refusing to admit the need for help

    The board of Webvan has no retail experience. You can hire all the VP's you want, but there has to be someone in the room, someone who has a voice among the directors, who can say "look, we build in this market, you have to consider factors x, y and z." There has to tbe someone at the top who knows the business, not from a theoretical sense, but from the ground up. They needed someone to be able to walk in the room with the people who matter and get them to listen. Louis Borders walks into the room, George Shaheen walks in the room, and he's going to be stared at when he tell these people how he can help them. They needed a food retailing executive on the board, not just their techie friends. Trust is the core of business relationships, and when you deal with food, one error can kill people. If you don't speak the language, no one will listen.


  • Refusing to acknowledge how consumers shop

    There is a psychology of food and shopping and people use it innately. Supermarkets are not designed by accident. In my local Pathmark, I have to go to the back to buy bread. That is not an accident. Nothing like an accident. They want you to walk past everything, including the cookies, so you may buy them before the bread. The sodas are displayed prominently because Coke and Pepsi pay good money for them to be there. That space is expensive and with good reason. People like supermarkets. They like shopping for food. Supermarkets are consciously designed to appeal to the hunter-gatherer instinct in our genes. For people to not go to a supermarket, there has to be a reason. The market was the first place where humans traded goods. There is history in how we shop for food.

    For a new, untested company to challenge all of our assumptions about food, and how we get it, they have to appeal to something more than a good idea. We're not talking about electronics, where you can return it,but food, elemental to our existence.


  • Poor demographic studies


  • Why would you place a warehouse for food in Atlanta and LA? These areas do not lack supermarket space. Just from a casual study, one could suggest that there are various cultural folkways which would cause problems. The South is a region where people are picky about food. They do not just buy what comes along. While the idea of Webvan might have appealed to transplants, locals would have resisted the idea. One example: if you don't have Hellmann's, Kraft Real Mayonnaise is not a substitute when someone is making potato salad, You use White Lily in your biscuits. How do you talk to the Webvan butcher? Specificity in ingredients is no small issue.

    Also, it is easier for people to drive to the store than wait for delivery in a region where everyone owns a car. Why would an Atlantan use an untested service when they know their local supermarket will provide what they need?

    In LA, there is such a diverse local population that Webvan could not hope to serve them all. How do they service ethnic populations over time? That's no small proposition. Also, LA is in a very good growing region. Why would you want to use Webvan's produce when your local store may have fresher goods.

    The problems grow only more pronounced in Orange County and San Diego, with the Latin American and Asian populations. Local merchants will always have the edge. Both regions are also extremely large and traffic heavy. Atlanta's traffic problems are bad and growing. LA's are legendary. These are basic questions that the company should have answered before spending dime one.

  • Poor customer targeting


  • The target customer for a Webvan service are people who have problems with getting to the store. Not just upscale internet users. Working with senior centers, new mothers, the handicapped, fraternities and late shift workers. Specific target markets who would need to be marketed to in very specialized ways. Instead of trying to convince the soccer mom and yuppie to change their shopping patterns. Webvan's marketing was clearly not targeted enough to make inroads with consumers who would have used the service repeatedly.

  • The costs of doing business online

    The company reportedly spent $40m on their Atlanta warehouse alone. I doubt the local chains spent that on their regional warehouse because all they have to do is ship the goods to stores in bulk. The problem with internet only operations is that they have to bear the cost of the last mile. It is vastly cheaper for you to go to the supermarket than for me to come to you. Also, it is vastly cheaper for you to pick your own products. Hell it's cheaper to send a kid at $10 p/h to shop for you around the store. Why? Because three kids could fill a delivery truck off the same shelves you use. No cold storage, no automation, no fleet of expensive vans and insured drivers.

  • Unusually high executive compensation

    FY1999 Pay

    Robert Swan, 39
    CEO $519K

    F. Terry Bean, 52
    Sr. VP of HR --

    Arvind Relan, 37
    Sr. VP, Platform Group --

    Mark Zaleski, 37
    Sr. VP, Area Operations $351K

    Relan, who no longer works for Webvan, sold, exercised
    options or gave as a gift nearly $7.3m worth of stock
    in less than two years. Swan, despite the company's
    failure, made $519K. Shaheen's compensation was the
    following:

    GEORGE T. SHAHEEN AND WEBVAN
    GROUP

    POSITION: President, Chief Executive Officer and Board
    Member

    EFFECTIVE DATE: September 19, 1999

    SALARY: $500,000 base plus 50% ($250,000) bonus at
    target (as set by the Board
    of Directors after conclusion with CEO)

    TRANSITION STOCK GRANT:

    A. 1,250,000 shares granted on September 19, 1999
    without restrictions

    STOCK OPTION:

    15,000,000 Shares at $8.00 per share

    Vesting:
    20% (3,000,000 shares) vest on effective date (9/19/99)
    80% to vest monthly over 4 years from September 19, 1999.

    Early Exercise: Executive may exercise early subject
    to a repurchase option at cost as to unvested shares.

    These generous packages allowed executives to take millions from the company in salary and stock. Relan had the ability to sell millions of his shares in a short period of time. Keep in mind, the stock price is now 12.9 cents. The institutional investors have a fraction of their investment left, while the executives are taking home salaries at the high end of the dotcom compensation scale.

Conclusion:

Webvan was far too ambitious in its plans, as were many dotcoms. The problem was that the company never had the kind of experienced food retail managers at the top of the corporate structure. Bringing in a consultant when the company was losing tens of millions dollars in their food operations may turn out to have been a fatal decision.

So many dotcoms, and clearly Webvan, thought that they were in the technology business. They assumed that they would conquer all their problems by getting the right mix of marketing and technology, when the problem was not a technological one to begin with.

Supermarkets spend millions in branding. They want you to go to Shoprite or Krogers or King's over their competitors. How could Webvan compete with every chain in America. Even Wal-Mart is entering that market cautiously, because there is no more complex relationship between the consumer and their food supplier. Yet, a book seller and his techie buddies thought they would walk into that relationship and meet up with few problems. How does the Internet provide for a better shopping relationship than my supermarket? It can't. It can enhance it, but who wants to be trapped in their house all day, waiting for someone to deliver food ?

What niche could they have filled? They could have been a super Kozmo, in that they would deliver goods, let's say, for a barbecue. You want to grill on the backyard and it's 3 PM, they'll be there by 5 PM, with everything, INCLUDING the grill. Or if you're having a party, they'll be there with the booze and everything else you need. The kind of services where your average supermarket falls down on. But that would have required forethought.

The goal would be to develop a local business which would be able to deliver high quality goods to your door quickly. Or help you with catering needs. There is a market for home delivery, but it has to be targeted carefully and tied to an existing revenue base. Instead of competing with local supermarkets, expanding their offerings would have worked much better. You don't need people to deliver bottles of Coke any more than you needed 50 lbs bags of dog food mailed to your house. A less ambitious offering, tied to local regions and supermarket chains, offering goods supermarkets do not deliver on well, speciality goods and catering, for example. Or doing home delivery of speciality goods like Omaha Steaks would have been a way to gain mindshare without competing with every store in the US.

You wouldn't need a $40m warehouse to do this, and it would take years and clever deals to get the help of local chains, but it is doable. AholdUSA now owns Peapod and is merging it into its existing distribution chain with its local supermarkets.

The obvious question is why did Louis Borders think that the supermarket experience needed to be altered? Because of checkout lines? Yes, checkout lines are a pain, but they are not a reason to create a new market either. The supermarket line is the exchange for the ability to pick one's goods in person.

This company has lost over $600m proving that building a new, national chain of full-service/home delivery supermarkets will probably not work. Only a few food chains have even attempted it and they serve prepared goods only. Even a casual examination would have shown that there are few national chains and no national supermarket chains. How Borders thought he would invent a new reality is beyond me.

Editor's Note: This is Part 6 of Steve Gilliard's ongoing series. You can read Part 1 (IVillage), Part 2 (Salon), Part 3 (Razorfish), Part 4 (Juno), and Part 5 (Ask Jeeves) on this site).
 
Posted Comments:post a comment!
Name: Email:

Comment:



Name:
Email:
Date: Sun May 20 12:57:05 2001
Comment:

Name: tom
Email:
Date: Wed May 2 01:35:01 2001
Comment: here's the link http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1007-200-5788560.html?tag=mn_hd

Name: tom
Email:
Date: Wed May 2 01:34:54 2001
Comment: here's the link

Name: tom
Email:
Date: Wed May 2 01:34:19 2001
Comment: Get this: Shaheen borrowed $6.7 mil. from webvan and paid back the loan with $150k worth of webvan stock.

Seems he had some AMT problems. poor guy.

Name:
Email:
Date: Tue May 1 11:20:03 2001
Comment: >Give them credit for best implementation of a bad idea.

I can just see this category at the Webby Awards - "and now, with Best Implementation of a Bad Idea - the nominees are..."

What a completely screwed-up business this is...

Name: steve gilliard
Email: sgilliard@netslaves.com
Date: Mon Apr 30 21:25:22 2001
Comment: Look, Zandar is dead on accurate here. Webvan was a good idea ONLY IF THE STORES PLAYED ALONG.

It's not Napster, where the record companies waited too late and can be circumvented, or Amazon, which created another channel authors and publishers wanted.

With no real ties to the industry, Webvan walked into one of the most complex relationships in the consumer retail business, offering nothing to the players in the business.

Look at the crappy selection they had in some markets. Why? Because they didn't matter to the wholesalers.

Wbvnlong,

Who asked them to save labor? Who was unhappy with supermarkets? Was there this demand to have shopping time saved? I don't remember this demand in the newspapers or in congress.

What they did was assume that people wanted to use this service. Unlike Kozmo which was mismanaged into failure, and with a few simple tweaks, like charging for deliveries, Webvan is not viable without the support of the large chains. They had to know this. They tried to arrogantly impose their vision of the business with no support from either the business or the consumer.

Amazon entered into a business where there was room for change. Webvan didn't. The economics are different.

Name: tom
Email:
Date: Mon Apr 30 17:24:41 2001
Comment: Give them credit for best implementation of a bad idea. The website works well & shopping is pretty easy. First time I used it I had to give them their props for having the tech part of it down. What they didn't have was enough customers to make it work (nor much prospect of ever getting them).

Name:
Email:
Date: Mon Apr 30 15:55:43 2001
Comment: >they tried something none of you lazy dweebs would ever have the abilty to do and all you can do is sit around and bash them.

Yeah, we're lazy. We're so lazy that we never became a public company, or bullshitted Wall Street into giving us a hundred million dollars, or pissed it all away so that our inventories wound up on overstock.com

Maybe more people should try being lazy, instead of being busy and stupid.

Name: wbvnlong
Email:
Date: Mon Apr 30 15:49:02 2001
Comment: Unlike AskJeeves and iVIllage and all the other lame dot coms that deserved to fail, Webvan actually tried to use technology to revolutionize the way people shop and breakdown inefficient supply chains. Their goals were lofty and possibly unattainable, but when you look at what they attempted you have to give them respect. Their huge warehouses were meant to eliminate the amount of labor necessary to bring grocies to the masses. Their delivery method was meant to save people their most precious commodity, time. Yes, they will probably fail, but they tried something none of you lazy dweebs would ever have the abilty to do and all you can do is sit around and bash them.

Name:
Email:
Date: Mon Apr 30 11:12:34 2001
Comment: steve, actually, I don't eat meat at every meal, maybe twice a day, and sometimes not. I go for balance.

I STOPPED drinking soda, and make a concious effort to avoid sugar, although it's possible to go off the deep end, a bit won't hurt.

Actually, If it were a pick between consuming fat and sugar, I'd consume the fat. the insulin spike from sugar makes me feel tired, and kinda like a limp dishtowel.

McDonalds and their ilk are to be avoided like the plague.

Name: Zandar
Email: zandar@iname.com
Date: Mon Apr 30 10:15:45 2001
Comment: Lemme clue you in to the grocery industry. I work for a company that provides financial internet services and software for trade management. Trade management is getting brokers, stores, and manufacturers together to buy and sell their products. Our biggest customers, by far, are food manufacturers and grocery chains.

Grocery stores sell space on their shelves to food manufacturers. This is how grocery stores stay in business. Food manufactuers sell food to grocery stores through brokers. This is how food manufactuers stay in business.

The gray area in the middle is trade management. The manufactuers pay the stores to sell products on promotion. That's why this week, there's a big display of Oreos at the front of the store, or Miller Lite, or Frosted Flakes. It's legalized bribery. The stores buy the promotion product cheap from the manufacturer, the manufacturer buys the space from the store. They deduct the cost from each other's bills. It's how the industry works.

Why Webvan failed is simple. Why should the manufacturers cut Webvan a break if Webvan can't build an endcap display for them? Webvan says "Sure, I'll advertise your product on our site" but they forgot that 95% of people ignore net advertising. PEOPLE DON'T IMPULSE BUY ON THE NET. Period.

Since Webvan can't sell space on its shelves for impulse buys, the manufacturers have nothing to gain from dealing with them. Webvan gets no sweetheart deals which make the industry work since their model in and of itself can't provide the same deal for the manufacturers. Result: Webvan tanks. The profit to the stores is mad from selling space and holding promotions, not from the sadly low margins on food itself. The manufacturers make money by selling in huge volumes to chains.

Webvan can't hack it because the buying and selling of supermarket impulse space is a science. I know, it's why I have a job. I've seen the numbers. It's a multi-billion dollar industry, grocery store space.

Webvan tried to go around that. It failed. Period.

Name: steve gilliard
Email: sgilliard@netslaves.com
Date: Mon Apr 30 10:11:10 2001
Comment: Secret,

I do mention the tight margins, but not the exact number. Yes the margins are that tight. And no one, Kozmo, Webvan or pre-Ahold Peapod understood the tight margins or how critical selling booze is for maintaining those margins.

Those warehouses are expensive to maintain. You won't see safeway maintaining them. Maybe the Army will buy them. Because they're the only people who can get that kind of use from them.

Those warehouses are massive, 350,000 sq feet. They will cost a fortune to maintain.

Jeff,

What is it with people who live outside New York, they know nothing of the city and they freely sneer at it. American tradition? You do know that there is more to life than the shopping mall and the interstate, right?

Actually, New York is actually pretty clean compared to Detroit or LA, it is crowded, but less so than other world cities. It is also hundreds of dollars cheaper to rely on mass transit than drive. You do know what mass transit is?:-)

I've been in McDonalds around the US, and the fact is that they are not cheap. Whether it's $6 in NY or $4 in Mississippi, it is more expensive than a fried catish sandwich and about the same as a Waffle House meal.

And there is a good reason Americans are fat, they stop off and drink 32oz of Soda a day.

Blank,

Actually, you should eat 6 oz a meat a day, not a meal. I also add water to those drinks because they're too fucking sweet anyway. I also drink soda infrequently. I even cut that with water.

Name:
Email:
Date: Mon Apr 30 08:47:12 2001
Comment: Deering,

>Not true. How many people can afford a steady
diet of fresh vegetables, fish, fruit, and high-end meat and bread?

Can or white albacore . . .1.50
Celery. . . . 1.00 / bunch
Salmon . . . 8.00 / pound plus or minus. . .(how much salmon will you eat in one meal?
Chuck eye steak, not bad. . . 3.50 - 4.00 / pound
Bread . . . 2.00 - 3-00 loaf (whole grain)
Brocolli . . . 1.50 bunch.
Cauliflower . . . 3.00 bunch.
Spaghetti . . . 2.50 3 pounds.

I generally eat on less than 40.00 per week at the supermarket. the key is not to eat a pound of meat at one meal. . . a serving is 6 - 8 oz, eat your veggies, they're not that expensive, root crops (potatoes, carrots, parsnips) are good ballast if you've a hign metabolism. . .
AND I always have enough in my budget for GOOD coffee.

As far as drinks are concerned, drink WATER. Ruby red costs 5.00 a jug, these drinks, (juices?) are EXPENSIVE. We drink way too much sugar anyway. Processed foods are always expensive, avoid the potato buds and buy your grains in bulk. Always keep about 5 lb. lentils or peas and beans of some sort, and 10 - 25 lb. of rice around, it's a great way to make more meal for the buck.

It's DEFINATELY possible to eat intelligently and not spend an arm and a leg. America needs to wake up to it's diet troubles.

Name: jeff frerra
Email:
Date: Mon Apr 30 03:55:59 2001
Comment: > The average Mc'D's meal is pushing $6

Gilliard, the typical McMeal runs about $4 nationwide. And people regularly stop off and pay about a buck for a 32 oz. drink at gas station soda fountains.

You wouldn't know because you choose to live in New York City, where people voluntarily pay 2X+ the normal cost of living to be treated like dirt in cramped quarters. You do know that there's a big world beyond the subway lines, don't you?

Name: SecretAgent
Email:
Date: Mon Apr 30 01:18:08 2001
Comment: A few other things....

No mention here that I see of typical supermarket profit margins. Out here we have Safeway and Albertsons competing for like a 1.5 to 2 % margin. Thats extreme. No way webvan was ever going to get in on that pie. Not with their cash burn rate. What they did want however, was the delivery means to your home. We will never see it but I am sure that they were focused on being the portal for _all_ deliveries to your house. Groceries, Auto parts, cleaning, videos, heck you might even have been able to order up exotic dancers to your doorstep.

SF Chronicle is predicting someone will pick them up for the infastructure they created (warehouse, web interface and vehicles). Sounds like bargain hunters to me.


Name: tom
Email:
Date: Sun Apr 29 21:11:20 2001
Comment: Steve: Change it "negligible retailing experience" and you're in the clear.

After I read the whole eCompany story I realized there was a more straightforward explanation: greed, hubris and stupidity all brought on by a career that rewarded his worst traits and surpressed whatever good ones he might've had.

Name: steve gilliard
Email: sgilliard@netslaves.com
Date: Sun Apr 29 19:32:50 2001
Comment: This is a quote from Shaheen from the eCompany story: This is a good customer proposition," he says. "I don't think it can fail." And what does he expect to be saying a year from now?


"I told you so."


Name: steve gilliard
Email: sgilliard@netslaves.com
Date: Sun Apr 29 19:20:02 2001
Comment: Tom,

That will have to be corrected. However, I would suggest that his experience in a small grocery in Central Illnois has only the slightest relevance to running a national retailer.


Name:
Email:
Date: Sun Apr 29 19:19:37 2001
Comment: http://www.nytimes.com/2001/04/29/technology/29COMP.html

Here's another funny one - Computer Associates. All I can say is oh my god!

Name: tom
Email:
Date: Sun Apr 29 17:39:44 2001
Comment: An amusing link from ecompany now:

sez webvan's gonna slaughter its competition.

http://www.ecompany.com/articles/mag/0,1640,6975%7C7054,00.html

Name: tom
Email:
Date: Sun Apr 29 17:30:36 2001
Comment: Steve: You're wrong about George Shaheen having no grocery experience, but even so George's experience probably clouded his vision.

He and his brother (now an executive at Caterpillar Inc. based in central Illinois) worked in their dad's grocery store in a small town about 30 miles from Peoria back in the '50s. I'm betting that his nostalgia for the good old days back home helped encourage him to take on Webvan.


Name: steve gilliard
Email: sgilliard@netslaves.com
Date: Sun Apr 29 09:44:31 2001
Comment: Deering,

Vegetables are cheap. Wheat bread is cheap. chicken is cheap. Fish is not. But one can buy a bag of mussles for $3. Fish is the most expensive food in the store. No question.

But have you seen the caloric intake for a Big Mac meal? 1400 calories for ONE meal. Even in McDonalds, one can get the grilled chicken sandwich or the fajita over the Big hunk of beef. One can not eat all the french fries or drink 32 oz of soda.

Fast food is not cheap, btw. The average Mc'D's meal is pushing $6, more than a deli sandwich and coke.

People can eat healthier if they choose. Just by choosing frozen veggies over canned, 1 percent fat milk, lower fat cheese, avoiding ice cream on a regular basis. These choices all exist. Fresh beans, 90 percent ground beef, fresh pasta and cheese over kraft.

Americans go to supermarkets where bad choices and good choices exist side by side. French fries don't even have a lot of fat, until you fry them. If you bake them, they cook fine and taste fine and have far less calories.

You can buy Canola and olive oils over corn oils. Hell, you can buy turkey over ham or bacon. You can buy a few pounds of frozen whiting for $6, a little more than a whole chicken. So there are choices people can make. They usually have to wait until their cardiologist makes the suggestion, however.

Name: SirKev
Email:
Date: Sun Apr 29 02:56:08 2001
Comment: Steve,
I'm not proud of being right, but anyone who understood computers and finances could see that most of these companies would go under. Once privacy advacates pushed forth laws regarding selling information, it got much more difficult for most of these dot-coms to ever see profit one.

I also agree with your assessment about technology solving problems. One of the lessons that I learned in my IS class is that you have to understand the problem before you can bring in technology. Most of these companies (outside of the quick money grab) thought that the internet can make anything better without understanding the industries.

Keep up the good work and I can't wait to see the next expose!

Name: deering
Email: deering1@mindspring.com
Date: Sun Apr 29 02:49:14 2001
Comment: >>Actually, it's not the supermarket's fault. No one makes Americans eat high fat food and french fries as our main vegetable. The fact is that Americans pick their food choices poorly when faced with the abundance of goods in your local supermarket.<<

Not true. How many people can afford a steady
diet of fresh vegetables, fish, fruit, and high-end meat and bread? It's been known for years
that seafood is one of the healthiest foods
out there, but try being able to buy anything
more than cod or canned salmon once a week on an
average salary, for example. (And that is once you get past the availability/shortage factor.) That is also one of the reasons fast food is popular--it is cheap and it is filling, and there simply aren't enough alternatives out there.

Name: DEEPGHETTO
Email: YOUKNOWIT@ALREADY
Date: Sun Apr 29 02:47:50 2001
Comment: Steve G...I agree with you.A $40mil D.C. is outlandish in that business.This is another perfect example of "reinvent the wheel".I bet someone sold them on a Distribution Center with automated order picking/packing,advanced this & that,and it was supposed to offset the additional cost by lowering labor related expenses.YEAH RIGHT!!...Sounds like an Anderson consultant made that recomendation...But to further make your point about management needing related experience.It is a well known fact that the real profit engine of Pepsico is Frito-Lay.In the '70's ALL mgnt trainees for F-L started as route salesmen as part of the program.This meant that whatever the later specialty those managers knew the Guts of the business.WebVan was an IPO in a market with fiercely competetive businesses a tailor made FUCK.

Name: steve gilliard
Email: sgilliard@netslaves.com
Date: Sun Apr 29 01:47:56 2001
Comment: El blanko,

Actually, it's not the supermarket's fault. No one makes Americans eat high fat food and french fries as our main vegetable. The fact is that Americans pick their food choices poorly when faced with the abundance of goods in your local supermarket.

Name: El Blanko
Email:
Date: Sun Apr 29 00:28:17 2001
Comment: --------------------
Supermarkets are consciously designed to appeal to the hunter-gatherer instinct in our genes. For
people to not go to a supermarket, there has to be a reason. The market was the first place where humans traded goods. There is history in how we shop for food. -----------------

It looks like the hunter-gatherer instinct is taking it toll on Americans:obesity. With food convenient, abundantly available and with hardly any energy expended to get it, we seem to be eating ourselves to death.
Webvan may have been on to something, by trying to alter that instinct; if they didn't deliver, you didn't eat.
I just wish that mother nature would also notice
that we Americans really don't hunt and gather anymore, but drive over to the A&P. If she did, she could speed up our metabolism so that we can burn up all the stored fat from our excessively high caloric intake. This could solve the obesity problem and no one will ever have to diet anymore. I wonder how long this will take in the evolutionary (creationism to some) scheme of things?

Name: steve gilliard
Email: sgilliard@netslaves.com
Date: Sat Apr 28 23:53:41 2001
Comment: Deep,

What supermarket needs a 40m warehouse? They aren't gonna buy that. No wonder Bechtel built it. Maybe they'll sell it to the military.

They should have picked better areas. They really thought they could take over the business and then force someone to the table. I think hell must have been being the food VP and telling these clowns what to do.

LA and the Inland Empire? What the fuck? Sacremento? Atlanta? Huh? What did they do? Got to Tiger and pick growing populations?

Another thing: their selection sucked. Where are the house brands and the low end chain brands? You know half of Kellogg's production goes to other companies. Yeesh. Amazing.

Name: DEEPGHETTO
Email: YOUKNOWIT@ALREADY
Date: Sat Apr 28 23:17:58 2001
Comment: Steve G...Not only did they not have experience operating groceries/food service but where was the transport/logistics management.As pointed out by both you and previous posts the choice of distribution centers was horrible..Carol Stream,Il for the Chicago market with fuel cost rising,how can delivery vans "Peddle Run" with enough revenue to cover cost! If Peapod couldn't do it with a focus on the densely populated North Side how in the HELL does Webvan think they can!...Steve you are correct that the only way this could ever work is partnerships with a few local heavy -hitters.As an example,partner with a Walgreens to deliver drugs,a Hyde Park CO-OP for groceries in South Shore/Oakwood/Bronzeville area,lets go a step further JEEZ..Ikea anywhere in the Metro area(Shaumburg is a Hell hole of traffic congestion).Webvan could have partnered with existing firms by running the website(back-office)side and delivery and used the partners existing warehouses and distribution centers(which I bet are more efficient than theirs).This could have been a nice software/ delivery company,but this was built for an IPO and to flip to a major supermarket chain(ie Kroger).

Name:
Email:
Date: Sat Apr 28 22:33:11 2001
Comment: If I'm not mistaken, Bechtel did the construction for Webvan's facility. You know - the pipeline guys. I believe it was a $300 m contract.

And somebody will use the facilities Bechtel built. But who?

Name: steve gilliard
Email: sgilliard@netslaves.com
Date: Sat Apr 28 21:00:16 2001
Comment: Robin,

The only point of the article I think needs moderation is the assumption that grocery delivery was a bad idea and shouldn't even have been tried.
-------------
Why would anyone pass up the supermarket, which is a social center and appeals to our basic hunter/gatherer sense? Yes, delivery services could work, if they were part of a supermarket's supply chain. But to set up a seperate one is to invite disaster.
-------------

But I say right there that it needed to be localized. HomeRuns.com in Boston seems to get a lot of business. But it's local. It is a good idea, but it needs to be tied to a local company with local marketing budgets.

I think Kozmo will resurface as a NY only business run by smart people. Because it worked. Like Amazon's book store worked.

But, assuming you're not a mom with school aged kids, the supermarket serves a social function for families that it doesn't for the single. Peapod, now a subsidiary of Ahold, needs to be watched closely, however. I think if you could pre-order your food and only pick up the stuff you need to pick by hand, people would be happy.

And the arrogance is amazing. My friend is a produce merchant, others own bars. It's hard fucking work and you just don't walk in the room without knowing the players.

Even today, this is a face to face business. McDonalds sends people to check cattle and potatoes, Ph.D's and pay them extremely well. So does every major food retailer in the US.

Bar owners have guys pushing booze, new beers, all kinds of shit every week. They even know the delivery guys from Bud. You don't just start a new business without talking to a ton of people and making a deal with a major player. That's how Priceline got screwed as well.

The distributors were not going to fuck up their relationships with the local chains to make Jay Walker happy.

Name: Steve_Baldwin
Email: sbaldwin@netslaves.com
Date: Sat Apr 28 20:54:45 2001
Comment: >These companies were NEVER designed to make or produce anything but an IPO. I'd love you to look at WebEX!

We probably should do a poll in which you can vote for the next petri dish to go under Steve G.'s microscope. All I can tell you is that I know what's in the story queue, and it's hot stuff.

Name: Bill Volk
Email: bvolk@youworkit.com
Date: Sat Apr 28 20:14:08 2001
Comment: These companies were NEVER designed to make or produce anything but an IPO. I'd love you to look at WebEX!

Name: jeff frerra
Email:
Date: Sat Apr 28 20:10:28 2001
Comment: I talked to some of the people starting these operations and the argument was that they could run their stores without dealing with the real estate, parking, location and other issues. They could have one or two central locations that serve a whole town.

Getting your groceries delivered to your house is actually a very old model. It could work, but not in the VC hybe bubble of the late 1990s.

Name: Fifty_Plus_Old_Fart
Email:
Date: Sat Apr 28 20:07:17 2001
Comment: Anybody else as old as me ever visit here?

BraveSirRobin, there was a time when home delivery by the local grocery was very common. When I was a kid and Truman was president, Mom would call the A&P, order stuff, and a half hour later a high school kid would show up with a couple of bags of groceries. The bill would be something like $2.85, Mom would give the kid three $1 bills and tell him to keep the change, and the kid would be happy with his big tip!

That system worked like Webvan, but had a personal touch missing on the internet. Mom could not only say she wanted a couple of pounds of bananas, but also say whether she wanted them green or ripe.

Costs forced chains like A&P to abandon delivery. I'm sure there are other people like you who hate grocery shopping, BraveSirRobin, but there aren't enough of you to make a profitable national business. Maybe Webvan and Kozmo would have survived if they had structured as local businesses in San Francisco and New York. But if they had done that, they wouldn't be IPO condidates.....

Name: BraveSirRobin
Email:
Date: Sat Apr 28 19:39:17 2001
Comment: Nice Report!
Please keep these up, Steve (I hope you're going to do Amazon soon :). The pattern I see emerging in these cases is of course disturbing. Executive-types decide to do "something" on the internet, which because it's on the internet cannot fail (New Economy, yada yada). They then fill out their personal financial portfolios while driving the company into the ground, blaming the wreck on "market conditions". They've bailed out at 5,000 ft with a parachute while the employees and investors perish in the wreck. I know, in many ways this is not a new story, but it sure seems to be happening a lot these days.

The only point of the article I think needs moderation is the assumption that grocery delivery was a bad idea and shouldn't even have been tried.
-------------
Why would anyone pass up the supermarket, which is a social center and appeals to our basic hunter/gatherer sense? Yes, delivery services could work, if they were part of a supermarket's supply chain. But to set up a seperate one is to invite disaster.
-------------

I don't see why this is a given. Going to the grocery store is not a wonderfully fullfilling social experience for me. Roughly 80% of what I buy at a store is what I buy every trip. I could live without the impulse buy for the convenience of having it show up. Heck, I'd even pay more if the service was good. And though the financials for the company doth truly suck, they do have a customer base.

The conclusion you made from the 10Q is right on, though. -> They way they approached it <- was doomed to fail. This is typical of the arrogance of tech execs, who think that books, groceries, whatever...selling it isn't rocket science, so if we through enough money at it, we'll win and retire before 40.

-------------
The modern supermarket has changed to offer a range of goods to appeal to the shopper's impulse buying instinct.
-------------

Much of Kozmo's business was impulse. They were a victim of the same fast growth and executive profit taking, but with more moderate growth and conservative spending they could have been ok.

In my mind, the need for a working computer for every customer was a big barrier to their growth. Why not do this over the phone?

It's all academic now, with their impending doom. I just hope someone (the major grocery chains?)was paying attention and eventually does this right.

Name: Old Economy Still Rules
Email:
Date: Sat Apr 28 19:37:08 2001
Comment: Did the Webvan founders ever look at a map or visit any of their target cities? The Oakland warehouse was going to service Sacramento??? Hello??? Did those guys ever try to take I-80 from Oakland to Sacramento? That's a hell of a long drive! The same thing applies to setting up operations in cities like Atlanta, LA, and San Diego -- they are all very spread out and most deliveries would involve a substantial drive and traffic problems.

Geographically compact cities like NYC and SF would have made far more sense. Even there they should have partnered with existing supermarket chains.

Your other points were cogent and dead-on. You're doing far better analysis than the usual brokerage analysts, Steve!