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60-Hour Work Weeks/$50K per Year = Corporate Wage Slavery? Posted Tue Apr 24 12:56:00 2001 by sbaldwin By Watcher I have witnessed a culture that is priding itself on working ever more hours for very unclear returns. This is especially true in the tech sector. Many smart individuals (young mostly) think they are making decent money ($50,000 or more per year), but are boasting about the number of hours they put in. Typically, they do it for vague notions of a promotion or more money or just to keep up. In reality, they are devaluing themselves. They would be making $50,000 per year if they worked a standard 40-hour work week, but I've heard many a techie talk about their 60-hour work weeks. At 60 hours a week, they are only making $33,333 per year, NOT the $50,000 per year they think they make. In addition, they lose out on the time (truly a precious commodity today) they would normally have to spend with their families or to devote to all the essentials in life. In essence, they are working free hours for their companies, who encourage it because they know a good thing when they get it. Yet promotions seldom come, raises are mostly cost-of-living, and any monetary gains or efficiencies realized are sucked up by upper management. While hard work is certainly something to be encouraged, it should benefit the worker first of all. With each encroachment upon our daily lives, we get closer to wage-slavery than we care to think about. Personal freedom seems to be one liberty that is increasingly becoming a victim to the Corporate Master.   Posted Comments: post a comment! Name: Email: Comment: Name: Burned Out Engineer Email: Date: Sat Apr 28 12:47:00 2001 Comment: More and more effort at lower and lower efficiency. Self Defeating! And all the promises for all that effort were never forthcoming. Name: The Lone Twister Email: Date: Fri Apr 27 13:55:30 2001 Comment: Now I wanna sniff some glue Now I wanna have something to do The Ramones Nuff said.. Name: dogfaced moonboy Email: Date: Fri Apr 27 02:27:01 2001 Comment: I think there are many factors at work here, among them a desire to over-cmpensate for the "slacker" branding of the early '90's that hit gen xers. The humiliation of being labeled a slacker, a wasted, drifting, and aimless couch potato, motivated people more than one might think at the outset. This picked up torque when combined with that old gen x trait, the "I'm different than all those other gen x'ers" conceit. "I'm not a goateed slacker! I'll show those guys! I'll roll up my sleeves and work 15 hours a day, or at least brag real loudly about it." I wouldn't say this was the main reason for all the overwork.. far from it. But it lurks there in the psychological closet like a briskly jigging skeleton of self-loathing and ego. Name: ArtFart Email: artm@axenhammer.com Date: Thu Apr 26 15:57:17 2001 Comment: This issue has several levels and a great deal of complexity. That makes the generalizations rather hard to swallow. There seems to be an increasing presumption that tech workers (or professionals of any stripe working on something related to the Internet) have been primarily motivated by greed. That's a horribly cynical view. Unfortunately, it's becmoning increasingly true after all. Many people are motivated in what they do by some degree of idealism. A lot of the "long hours" tradition in high-tech dates from the post-Sputnik space-exploration era, when people were truly driven by a passion to do something wonderful. Also, there's the fact that techies often find themselves working on complex tasks that take much longer to accomplish if they stop in the middle and have to spend part of the next day remembering where they left off. In the early months of the great Web explosion (Years don't seem to be a fine enough measure in the span of Internet time) there were quite a few people who labored long and hard because they knew they were creating something altogether new, and looked forward to stepping back at the end and being able to say, "Look at this wonderful thing. I did that!" Some of them accomplished truly remarkable things, particularly in view of the lack of high-level tools at the time. ("Knowing HTML" didn't always mean being a whiz at driving GoLive or Dreamweaver!) For a comparative fortunate few, there were financial rewards that made victory all the sweeter. Just as often, something was built that was a technical and artistic success but not a reasonable basis for a business. Today, there aren't as many opportunities for "adventure". How excited can you get about building yet another B2B portal site, or writing some piece of software catch corporate serfs surfing for porn? So, the opportunities for karma are fewer and further between, and those that are left still carry a high risk of disappointment. Nonetheless, this whole process has transformed a whole generation into cynics. So you busted your butt in your first Net job, and then somebdy bought your company out and trashed everything yuo put so much blood into. Might give you a different attitude the next time around. Go ahead and play the "look-busy" game while grabbing all the free beer, fancy cars, nookie and blow you can. Who knows, there may be some hard times coming up. Name: dardan Email: Date: Wed Apr 25 15:51:51 2001 Comment: To join a few threads into one: Free Trade, Corporations & Worker's Rights. With the understanding that you can't legislate morality (only bad PR, i.e., public non-apapathy (pressure), does that), do you really think anything will change? Maybe our jobs won't disappear to 3rd world countries where they have no or few labour laws. But it seems to me that we're on that blue-collar/exploited level where its either the evil bloat of a union or some sort of legislation that'll change it. Barring that, public pressure won't change anything--we're preceived pretty much as overpaid whiz-kids sitting around all day. (Well, okay, some are.) Corporations don't behave out of the kindness of their heart: bottom line is to make $$$, and if there's no laws to stop them, they'll do it any way they can. (This is the problem that most free trade agreements seem to miss.) With the economy sagging, exploitation will grow to the point where post office workers won't be the only ones feared as being "disgruntled". Name: Ertischek Email: Date: Wed Apr 25 15:48:12 2001 Comment: Cowherd: U ain't just crackin yer crockery cowherd. gummint where it's at..2 hour work days and pay for 40.. Name: Eponymous Cowherd Email: Date: Wed Apr 25 15:29:46 2001 Comment: Dat's dah beeeeyewwtee of werkin' fo' dah gummint. No overtime, bayyybeeeee! Name: samezone19 Email: Date: Wed Apr 25 14:57:04 2001 Comment: http://www.wsj.com/public/current/articles/SB92112075592240457.htm Check out this article, written in early 1999 - the height of the dot-com boom. It TRUMPETS the fact that young people "had more faith in the market than they did in social security" and were taking more risks as a result. Now we all know where that led - to a lot of young people being wiped clean out by the market. Name: Email: Date: Wed Apr 25 13:55:15 2001 Comment: d-oh. . . I meant, If this group of people who are calling themselves "conservative", "classical Liberal" or whatever brand of abrasive talk show host ideology they choose to envision themselves adopting doesn't soon realize that they're being misled, we'll all be in the "privitization" toilet, if we're not halfway there already. Name: Email: Date: Wed Apr 25 13:47:19 2001 Comment: twisted- I think it died in the 80s. >We need to stop letting corporations be the gatekeepers for essential services like retirement plans and health insurance. I never really thought of it in this way. but on thinking about it, it makes perfect sense. They can't be accused of being the ONLY way, since insurance is available privately, albeit almost prohibitively expensive for the individual, it means that now we're faced with a much uglier specter of disenfranchisement. . . I have long maintained that maintaining the illusion of freedom has been the agenda of this country's government for a long time, now putting this and other "enforcement powers" into corporate hands is a way of doing this because it doesn't come into direct conflict with constitutional law. . . congress shall pass no law, simply relegating the provision or denial of social services to the employer, giving them tax incentives to do so, and allowing them to fire troublemakers, those with "attitude difficulties" those who have "unpopular political opinions" those who don't "conform" at will releives the government of having to answer for the direct recindment of personal civil liberty. If this group of people who are calling themselves "conservative", "classical Liberal" or whatever brand of abrasive talk show host ideology they choose to envision themselves adopting we'll all be in the "privitization" toilet, if we're not halfway there already. Name: Ertsichek Email: Date: Wed Apr 25 13:30:50 2001 Comment: Who's Johnson? Name: bob Email: pale_13@usa.net Date: Wed Apr 25 13:27:46 2001 Comment: "Just one person willing to play the game costs everyone else credibility." --MasterPo I've got to disagree. This person or person will come across as the suck-up they are, or more probably, their competency will be questioned. "Whats the matter Johnson?" Here again late? Why can't you get your work done in 8 hours like evreyone else?" That is a defeatist attitude. Play to win... or don't play at all. Name: twisted sistah Email: bitemybeaver@hotmail.com Date: Wed Apr 25 13:12:56 2001 Comment: Having been thru the dotcom grist (the most recent fallacy that I had to live with was a direct breaking of a contract for employment--after a consulting gig--had an offer pulled after it was made, while they let about half of their core staff go).... Unionization or some kind of basic extension of labor laws to non-blue-collar professions is needed. It CAN'T be done on an individual basis, because bosses KNOW that they can fire a troublemaker. Go back and read the history of labor laws in the US.... We need to stop letting corporations be the gatekeepers for essential services like retirement plans and health insurance. These should be individual rights, or at very least, linked up to work done, as in unemployment insurance (which does not do a thing for contractors btw). There are days when I think about going to Europe or elsewhere...despite all the Euros I know who say it's boring, etc...if nothing else, just to get some basic social services in return for my labor. Yes I know how that can be done in my particular case. I love America but right now it's not loving me back. My family came here to escape some of the very conditions and abuses that workers here are subject to now...relatives in the labor movement must be turning in their graves.... (sorry, getting all philosophical here) From the fields to the tenaments to the sweatshops to factories to the suburbs....and now, their descendants are back in the sweatshops and moving out of good neighborhoods to the hinterlands, no hope of owning, no security. The American Dream died at some point in the last 10 years. Sad. --TS Name: Email: Date: Wed Apr 25 11:33:24 2001 Comment: when a society values the ethos - get mine, cash out - it's impossible to maintain a social fabric. You need a warp and weft and the thread count must be sufficiently high. Name: abe vagoda Email: Date: Wed Apr 25 10:57:48 2001 Comment: Isn't it too bad that senior management doesn't realize this fact about fish rotting. I'm guessing they are too worried about padding their bank accounts. Nobody sees how important it is to be a true leader anymore. Nobody takes it seriously. There is a responsibility that comes with leadership to take care about those that you lead. Leaders should value their employees for it is they who make possible their standard of living. Name: MasterPo Email: Date: Wed Apr 25 09:52:22 2001 Comment: Final comment on this: There's an expression "A fish rots from the head down." (that means if things are bad at the top that filters down to everyone.) If the execs made it clear that productivity, not hours, is what impresses them then thing would change. But they don't so it won't. Name: Ertischek Email: Date: Wed Apr 25 09:20:35 2001 Comment: Re: The Mythical Man-Month : Essays on Software Engineering Read that book about ten years ago.. a classic that every manager shoul read but won't Name: MasterPo Email: Date: Wed Apr 25 09:07:04 2001 Comment: Very simply put: It's a buyer's market. That's there are more sellers (employees looking for decent work) than buyers (employers). As such you are generally playing with fire. You may call it kissing the boss's ass. I call it protecting my income stream. I don't like it. But if I make waves I'll be #1 on the next round of lay offs (in the mean time I'll be given the really crappy assignments that ALWAYS require OT!). And the boss won't care. He'll just hiring one of a dozen IT people eager for any kind of work. I don't like unions but your point would only work if EVERYONE did the same thing (i.e. stand up). Just one person willing to play the game costs everyone else credibility. Name: Email: Date: Wed Apr 25 08:40:48 2001 Comment: Douglas: That's such a succinct way of putting it. . . comparing it to an abusive relationship. . . I only wish that others would see it this way. . . we'd have some clout. People will do what they know that they can get away with doing. Managers (not all) are no exception. Unfortunately most are not socialized to have the level of self confidence that is necessary to just up and quit if that's what's necessary. It's difficult especially for those whose lack of self confidence gets them into exploitive situations with little remunerative benefit. We MUST work and therefore this card is always the trump. Unfortuantely, management usually holds it. Name: Joe Calico Email: Date: Wed Apr 25 08:12:43 2001 Comment: Management by crisis is a sure sign of poor planning and unrealistic expectations. The result is workers scrambling to write 10 man years of code in 2. You reach a point of diminishing returns as you throw more warm bodies at a problem that is usually the result of poor design/planning/budgeting. A good read: "The Mythical Man-Month : Essays on Software Engineering" by Frederick P. Brooks Jr. It goes back to when many here were in diapers but still applies to today's projects. A must read. Name: Douglas Email: douglas@welchwrite.com Date: Wed Apr 25 01:51:10 2001 Comment: > Every manager and exec talk a good game > [snip].... But they all do it anyway. They do it because they can get away with it. It all comes back to the point where each worker has to have the respect for themselves and their own lives to say "enough is enough." You can only do what is best for yourself. Your leaving a job won't help anyone else, but it just might make your life better. To NOT leave when a job is bad enough to complain about, or worse, cause you physical illness, has all the elements a protypical abusive relationship. "He won't hit me again!. It was all my fault. It happens to everyone." I have had people tell me stories about workplace abuse that would have me calling the cops and they did nothing. This is not jsut frightening but sad. If you have enough talent to get your current job, you have enough talent to find another one. Don't let anyone tell you that you can't. Many of us have had at least one good job in our careers. We know they are out there. Not taking the abuse of bad companies, bad managers and bad peers is the first step to finding it. It doesn't have to be the way it is. [Man I hate this little tiny SUBMIT window :)] Name: MasterPo Email: Date: Tue Apr 24 23:41:43 2001 Comment: I would also point out that as a new hire you take what you get. That is, you have little control over how the company or at least your department works in terms of OT. Perhaps if you're there from the start as a founding principal of the company then maybe you can set the policy for OT. But even then, the founders usually work the longest days anyway. Name: MasterPo Email: Date: Tue Apr 24 23:38:34 2001 Comment: Douglas - As the Ferengi say "Pride and an empty purse are worth only the empty purse." Every manager and exec talk a good game. They all say they know and accept things like hours don't mean productivity; They say they know that there is a diminshing productivity as more hours are put in; They say they know that if you start by planning for OT you're already in trouble, etc etc etc. But they all do it anyway. Name: Email: Date: Tue Apr 24 22:56:17 2001 Comment: Many years ago I was working late at a very large disk drive manufacterer as the owner of the company was walking by. He looked down, and instead of nodding or saying hello, he said "Whats the matter? Cant do eight hours of work in an eight hour day?" I miss that place. Name: Douglas Email: douglas@welchwrite.com Date: Tue Apr 24 22:18:21 2001 Comment: > Doug - Incase you haven't noticed, it's image >over substance these days. That is, it isn't so >much what you do but more of what you say > you're doing that counts. Yes, but this is also a clear indication that you ought to find another company that respects its people and doesn't reward A**-kissers. I hope you clearly told the people in charge what the jerk was doing. If not, then, like so many people, you were sowing the seeds or your own problem. Stand up for what you believe in! Name: Douglas Email: douglas@welchwrite.com Date: Tue Apr 24 22:14:53 2001 Comment: >You guys are on about doing all nighters and > you're complaining....let me put it this way...if > you are doing network support you have to > > be available if you have the skills.... The trouble is "emergency" quickly turns into "every single day". Too many times I have seen staff run into the ground because someone couldn't plan, schedule or otherwise manage the department not due to any true need. Name: Eric Email: Date: Tue Apr 24 22:09:25 2001 Comment: Long hours and boasting about it has been a staple of the tech industry for decades (PC business back to 1980). This is not new to the current generation. The reason tech companies hire young people is because they need a new crop of idealistic folks. By time we've been in the business a decade or two or three, the "Remember, you're working to change the world!" banners in the workplace no longer read like morale boosters but silly excuses for exploitation. Or my favorite, "Remember, 12 hours a day makes you a half-timer" (half of 24 hours for those who's brains are too fried to figure it out). As to the other comment about if people are working such long hours, then why is the economy toast? Simple answer: Because they are working long hours at useless tasks that do not lead to adding useful value to the economy. If run as fast as you can in the wrong direction, you'll not get closer to a useful goal. Now - a little secret about "salaried workers". The way the U.S. Dept of Labor defines a salaried worker, its supposed to apply only to managers, certain professionals who clearly set their own agenda and hours, and sales people. Except - there is a special exception for computer programmers. I wish I was making this up. I've read it myself. Its available on the web too although I did not save a link... search for the topic and you'll find it. The result is massive abuse of the exempt worker category. Name: Sick of O/T Email: Date: Tue Apr 24 19:46:44 2001 Comment: Thanks Ertischek, you hit it on the head. The beepers and cell phones and 3 AM phone calls mostly come from trying to get 168 hours a week of coverage from one poor sys admin or network technician. Name: Ertischek Email: Date: Tue Apr 24 19:35:43 2001 Comment: Re: Take for instance the job of Shift Supervisor at a Nuclear Power Plant. I imagine that you would like to think somebody is watching the thermometer 24 hours a day, and that that somebody is fresh and alert. In my experience, that is generlly the case. How do they manage it? They have three or four full time personnel to cover the position. Rather than try to get one human to work around the clock forever, they get three to work in shifts. See...this proves my pont..nuclear plant management is an outgrowth of the utilities industry, a very old and mature entity that is rather more important than all the killer apps in the world..no electricity, no IT, pal..this is what IT management needs..a full blown study of facilities management in a mature industry that understands how to most effectively use its human resources..but they're too damn arrogant with their latest gee whiz toys to ever do such a radical thing..would probably save billions but NOooooo.. Name: vonbek Email: Date: Tue Apr 24 19:24:06 2001 Comment: fer christ sake its simple.... If you do not support the network infrastructure there is no frigging work... christ don't you wankers build networks?? No?? then STFU!!! BBBBBBBBBBAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH you lot have no idea *****ggggggrrrrrrrrrrrrr***** Name: Protestant Work Ethic Email: Date: Tue Apr 24 18:55:47 2001 Comment: I am suprised by all the talk of 60-hour work week. From that level of increased labor productivity America should NOT be in the current economic downturn. Just the stress from such a rigorous schedule would cause more nervous breakdowns than we have seen. So something is wrong with the picture. People may not be working the hours they claim. It is simple to fool the right people into thinking you are working 60 hour weeks. Faking does require that you be a morning type person, or least be permited to telecommute. You must also get lucky by working for a large telecom company with multiple locations in a state like New Jersey, and an on-site gym and spa. (Be sure also that you are NOT in accounting, particulary at the end-of-quarter book close period. This job is reserved for a special breed. You would be foolish to want it.) From 7 a.m. to 9 a.m., spend those hours in the gym/spa working out or gossiping with the people there. Be sure to return and leave voice mail msgs at 7 a.m. to give people the idea that you are at your desk at 7 a.m. Around 9 a.m. review your list of meetings that you want to attend. You MUST attend a few of these large meaningless meetings.(Aferall, you will be a "process leader" of some sort. Invariably, senior mangement will want a product launched and you know that they dont have the technical, billing, or customer service capabilities to do so. Customers will want one bill or CSR for the multiple services and you can't provide it. A big name consultantcy was already paid tens of millions to tell you that is not feasible. The same idea was also dead on arrival last year, but due to so many downsizings there is no institutional knowledge to guide you. Besides you need SOMETHING to keep you busy.) Face time is VERY important at these meeting; remember out of sight of mind. From 10 a.m. to 12 pm attend scheduled meetings make sure you sign the attendance sheet with your email address on it. The meeting will be led by a marketing whiz (with no background and knowledge of telecom whatsoever) that they hired from a consumer products company whose claim to fame will be marketing ketchup without any tomatoes in it. To this day, I have stopped eating ketchup. Occasionally, pretend you are really busy and can attend a meeting only by "conference call". This is important your office mates must hear you on the conference call. Around noon, plan for an off-site meeting that will take you to another facility and include your lunch break and personal errands. Be sure to return msgs from your cell phone or an outside line; people need to know you are NOT in the building. Around 4 p.m., plan your schedule for tomorrow and update your status reports. Email the status reports to the appropriate people as necessary, including the people on the project team. The status reports will be the ONLY proof later that you actually did some work come bonus time. From 4 p.m. to 6 p.m make sure you are at your desk doing all the busy boring work. Everyone should be attempting to leave around 5:30 p.m., particularly the ones with childcare needs or long commutes. Better yet, hold a meeting in the large conference room near the main exit, so that people can see you in a meeting as they are leaving for the day. Be polite and explain to those leaving "early" how wonderful it is to have a life outside work. Complement them on how clever they are at balancing work and home life. This is really a ploy to make sure that they know YOU are "working" late. At 7 p.m. before going to gym again (or doing some minor research in the corporate library), leave some more msgs. Make sure the time and stamp is working on the voice mail system. This is really all in day's work. Name: No More OT! Email: Date: Tue Apr 24 17:34:45 2001 Comment: Programming experiences: 1. Went on an interview, the manager and I danced around while I tried to find out if it was an overtime shop. He kept saying "I give out work you should be able to do in forty hours." It was a group interview. I wish I'd asked some of the peons how many hours they worked. This was a former startup, but by a huge European company, so they probably wanted startup hours for Mega-corp raise schedules. 2. Another interview - this was a manager who had been shit-canned from a company I had been, though in separate layoffs, so maybe he was a little more candid. This guy actually said something sensible: He always scheduled for 40 hours a week because, if he expected overtime just to meet the plan, what happens if there is a real emergency? 3. Least productive company I have ever worked for made the biggest fuss about overtime, meals brought in, managers stalking around, etc. etc. well before dot-com hysteria. Very little got accomplished. Name: Email: Date: Tue Apr 24 17:33:09 2001 Comment: Name: dardan Email: Date: Tue Apr 24 17:28:05 2001 Comment: How 'bout we apply extreme programming to shift work? It'd be a sweaty room, eh? Name: Bostonian Email: Date: Tue Apr 24 17:23:27 2001 Comment: Damn that text handler!!! That first line was supposed to be a paraphase that read "I understand your point. . . Some jobs demand LONG HOURS, healthcare, critical infrastructure. . . " Name: Bostonian Email: Date: Tue Apr 24 17:22:16 2001 Comment: Blank writes: "I understand your point. . . Some jobs demand , healthcare, critical infrastructure. . . " Certainly, some professions are high intensity, 24-7 endeavors. Take for instance the job of Shift Supervisor at a Nuclear Power Plant. I imagine that you would like to think somebody is watching the thermometer 24 hours a day, and that that somebody is fresh and alert. In my experience, that is generally the case. How do they manage it? They have three or four full time personnel to cover the position. Rather than try to get one human to work around the clock forever, they get three to work in shifts. Radical idea, I know... So, the next time your boss tries to justify his demands on your time with the excuse that "you are expected to work as many hours as it takes to get the job done", reply to him that you expect him to hire enough personnel to support the man hours that he requires to get the job done. It helps if you yell this over your shoulder as you are heading out the door. Your best bet is to say no at the first opportunity (and every subsequent one, as well). As noted earlier, it gets infinitely harder to say no after you say yes just once... Name: dardan Email: Date: Tue Apr 24 17:18:14 2001 Comment: PaddBear: On the money! There's no regaining lost time. I worked my ass off for a few start-ups in order to make an impression to my bosses. Lotta good that did: sure I got the recognition (and some $$$), but I sure wish I spent that time with my sick mom (big "C"). She's gone now & its my fault for lost time. But I'm sure everyone remembers when they were fresh out of school & eager, and wanted nothing more than a puppy-dog pat on the head from your bosses. No such thing as "career development", unless you quit. Overtime? Like others, I put in to 40 hrs/wk & that's all. I pity those who have families & continue to brag about their long weeks. Do they really like being denial over how stressed-out they really are? Name: Joe Calico Email: Date: Tue Apr 24 17:01:36 2001 Comment: M Dells favorite saying, "12 a day for 8 in pay". Only a fools game. Also, thank your poon jabbi h1 visa sweatshop workers for lower standards. We get the cluster fuck. This is not flame bait you pc homos, so stfu. Name: Zira Email: Date: Tue Apr 24 16:50:31 2001 Comment: I worked as a developer for a few years to "earn my chops". 12-16 hour days were the norm -- mainly because I was doing as much learning as developing. Then I learned to estimate my time effectively: and how to work 8 hours days (more productive than the latter). And get home on time. And now I contract. Name: MasterPo Email: Date: Tue Apr 24 16:48:50 2001 Comment: To Blank - True, certain fields like health, medicine, finance and networks do require more coverage than say Pizza delivery. OTOH, any business can be made into a do-or-die critial situation. I spent 4.5 years at a marketing company. Hell, the sold magazine subscriptions and Jello cookbooks! Granted the company was rolling in dough the years I was there (on hard times now, I wonder if there's a connection?). But let's keep perspective - it's only magazine subscriptions! But every project was a life-and-death issue. Every system burp the end of the world. Every deadline Judgement day. My point being it's hard to draw the line at what industries are high stress and which are low. Depends on the people you work with. Schmoe - Yea, computers were supposed to shorten the work week. We were supposed to have all this free time for leasure. If it took you 5 days to do some task, with a computer you could do it in 3 and spend the rest of the week at the beach. Did anyone really believe that?????? BTW, studies have proven that when employees are motivated by shorter work hours (at the same rate of pay and bennies) productive really does improve!!! Name: BA Email: Date: Tue Apr 24 16:46:07 2001 Comment: The economist Juliet Schor has some great stuff, in her book The Overworked American and elsewhere, on the whole labor-leisure-wages-value tip. Strongly recommend. "When people are victims of overwork and their work is so stressful and long, it impairs the quality of their leisure tremendously. You get into a vicious cycle in which long hours of work undermine leisure, which then makes leisure less appealing to people, in a sense, and makes them even more subject or prone to long hours of work. What I like to think is that we could get a virtuous cycle going in the other direction: that if working hours were shorter, people's leisure time would become more valuable to them because they could use it better because there is more of it. They would be in a better physical and mental frame of mind to appreciate it." Entire interview is at http://www.zmag.org/zmag/articles/barschor.htm Name: Joe Schmoe Email: jo_schmoe@hotmail.com Date: Tue Apr 24 16:23:02 2001 Comment: this may be a moot point, but is anybody annoyed that we're still on a 40-hour week standard? shouldn't it be less by now?! i know about how the advent of the internet and other technological gizmos has ultimately created more work for everybody, but nobody seems to be doing anything about it. except ... the french! see if i was making $50K for 20 hours of work a week, then i'd have something. ugh, but if i was, i'd probably get a second job anyway. alas. Name: Email: Date: Tue Apr 24 16:10:43 2001 Comment: Vonbeck. . . I wouldn't say you count among the cunts, I'd just say that work = time = value. If you want a car that accelerates from 0 - 100 mph. in under 8 seconds yo will pay for it. If you want to pay only 15,000 US for a car then you will have to settle for a low end VW or Honda. Labor is commoditized and while you pay for a high performance CEO or COO or whatever, the intent on the part of management whenit comes to hiring "team members" is to get a nice BMW for the price of a beat up old AMC Pacer. Machines are also quite ruthless, fail to maintain them and they will cease to function. I'd love to see some clueless idiot talking to a malfunctioning printing press about "work ethic". Management loves to talk about "Value" but what is value when you're talkin' labor? Time is people's most precious resource. Name: B Labor Email: Date: Tue Apr 24 16:03:58 2001 Comment: sbdwestpac: If I may be so bold, what was the "major project" that required 16 hour days for three months? Name: sbdwestpac Email: sbdwestpac@aol.com Date: Tue Apr 24 15:59:53 2001 Comment: I worked 16+ hours a day for about three months on a major project for my company. A few days before we wrapped it up I hit my car hit a concrete retaining wall head-on because I fell asleep while driving home. If I'd been driving my old car I'd probably be dead, but my Saturn absorbed enough of the impact to allow my wife and I to walk away from it. I have no doubt that the long hours/stress that I was under was the cause of the accident. Now I don't work overtime unless it is absolutely essential, and I spend my time outside of my 40 hours with my wife. Name: Todd Email: Date: Tue Apr 24 15:52:34 2001 Comment: Sorry! Forgot the link. Here it is: http://www.popupdate.com/weakestlink.html Name: Todd Email: Date: Tue Apr 24 15:51:31 2001 Comment: I think this article sums up Watcher's feelings pretty well. It compares life at a dot-com to that show "The Weakest Link." Name: vonbek Email: Date: Tue Apr 24 15:51:15 2001 Comment: Dude who is blank.... Well as a manager I guess I count among the cunts then. Well oddly enough I would agree with you. With one proviso...I am a manager who does his damndest to get something for work done my teams. If that means I pay at the end of the...I do it. Not out of any sense of pride for the company or that crap. If I do it it is because 'I' appreciate and understand what they have gone through and want to make them understand that. Honesty does wonders Name: Email: Date: Tue Apr 24 15:46:34 2001 Comment: sad, but true. Name: BA Email: Date: Tue Apr 24 16:46:20 2001 Comment: "The opinion among managers of a lot of salaried employees is that you work as many hours as necessary to get whatever done that your boss puts on your plate. . . if you want overtime, go work at McDonalds." Yup, this is the way it works, I always have to make sure there's space on my plate for that oh-by-the-way extra load that could drop at anytime because the people above me can't plan projects or allocate resources (a rant for another time, perhaps). And how do I do this? By working at or below 80% capacity all the rest of the time so that I can always be ready to hit the ground running. I am not proud of myself, but that's just the way things work, and I'd be dumb not to play along. Also this allows me to see it not as caving to my boss when he dumps work on me, but by snookering him in all cases but that one. Self-delusional perhaps, but I go home with my pride intact and relatively stress free. Name: Email: Date: Tue Apr 24 16:34:01 2001 Comment: vonbek. . . I understand your point. . . Some jobs demand this, healthcare, critical infrastructure. . . It's happening quite a lot, and it's partially because people let themselves get sucked in by the managerial pressure combined with the propaganda. The opinion among managers of a lot of salaried employees is that you work as many hours as necessary to get whatever done that your boss puts on your plate. . . if you want overtime, go work at McDonalds. If you're sufficiently gullible to fall for that line of shit on TV, You'll definately cave when your boss asks for extra. Once they know that they can get it, they'll always ask. Will you refuse? Name: Ertischek Email: Date: Tue Apr 24 16:29:37 2001 Comment: MasterPo Re: I think the popular media, via the current popular TV shows, glorify long hours and show it as no handicap to "having it all The other thing to consider is that shows like Ally also reflect the 16-hour day work schedules of Hollywood production..perhaps the unglamorous grunt-like work of putting together a fantasy like Ally both reflects that lifestyle and subverts it at the same time..I remember hearing Farah Fawcett once talking about the "glamorous" life of a tv star..The pinhead interviewer asked her if she and then hubby Lee Majors shared hot times after work? Farrah looked at the guy, and allowed as how after seventeen-hour work days, neither she nor her hubby had the energy for anything but crawling into bed..so the fantasy makers are exhauted by their own creation..ironic nes pas? Name: Bill Volk Email: bvolk@youworkit.com Date: Tue Apr 24 16:27:59 2001 Comment: A company's culture reflects the attitudes of the people who run it. I worked in the video game biz for many years ... and you could drive by that office at midnight and the lights would be on! This was a culture of young unmarried men ... all the way to senior management. Yeah, we got women characters ... but they all have big boobs. Then I switched into educational games (with a capital 'E', selling to public schools). Wow, that was a culture shock. More women than men, and everyone pretty much had a family life. I was called on the carpet the first month for my harsh criticism of a game design ... the sort of stuff that wouldn't have even raised an eyebrow in my video-game days. I had to learn how to deal with people in a manner different than a Quake-Fest. In fact I also got a life ... got down to normal 40 hours a week ... lost over 100 lbs and got into great shape. Figured out how to produce stuff on time and on budget without death-march management. It was really cool ... a great 5 years. Then I worked at a dot-com startup ..... Name: MasterPo Email: Date: Tue Apr 24 16:25:53 2001 Comment: Doug - Incase you haven't noticed, it's image over substance these days. That is, it isn't so much what you do but more of what you say you're doing that counts. Case in point: At my last job there was a guy who everyday would tell everyone he met (especially anyone in management) how late he was in the office the day before: "I was here until 6:30 last night", "I was working on this at 7 o'clock yesterday", or "I did leave until 7:30 last night". He neglected to mention that he doesn't get in until 9:30, 10, 10:30 or even later some days! It must have helped. He got promoted over his former manager! If the world worked as it should your managers should know the quality of the work you do and how much a producer you are. But the reality is that sitting at your desk and working hard 8 hours is of less visibility then doing less work but staying longer. IOW, people will remember that you came in at 9 and left at 5 rather than what you actually did all day. Perverse but true. Name: vonbek Email: Date: Tue Apr 24 16:22:55 2001 Comment: BULLSHIT!!! You guys are on about doing all nighters and you're complaining....let me put it this way...if you are doing network support you have to be available if you have the skills.... ok rant is deminishing!... What I mean is that are times when you have to support that mission critical server, network, whatever...yeah it sucks but it needs to be done...you do it and then the company compensates you with the standard callout bonus/over time. ooopppsss sorry the above is traditional IT..not dot bullshit cons (sorry just someone I know has just been given the boot) Name: Durin's Pain Email: Ball-hog@Morgoth.com Date: Tue Apr 24 16:12:12 2001 Comment: It's commonly referred to as PROPAGANDA. It's no guarantor that people will emulate this behavior, but when presented as a role modeling thing it's no doubt that SOME people will identify with it. The more people who identify with it and embrace it, the cooler for them. They've already got to produce content to justify their ad revenue eh? so they may as well try a little social engineering while they're at it. more people adhere, more people are willing to work the hours. Tautology may be tautology but hey, more is more. It certainly ain't less. Name: Douglas Email: douglas@welchwrite.com Date: Tue Apr 24 15:54:08 2001 Comment: A company will take as many hours as you are willing to put in. I have never had any sympathy for people who constantly talk about how many all nighters they put in. They seem to ignore the fact that they are doing it to themselves. Name: PaddBear Email: stephena@compbear.com Date: Tue Apr 24 15:52:16 2001 Comment: When I was contracting, working more than 40 hrs/week paid off. When I switched from contracting to employee status, sometimes the overtime work was exciting (well, back in the early days at Microsoft it was...). Nowadays, it is 40 hrs. You want more, we talk comp time. If the tech writing job can't be done in 'reasonable time' (barring any "crunching" that comes with any project, such as last minute changes, reading proofs on the weekend at home), I'm not going to eat the extra hours. At my last job, the hours were explained this way -- "We expect you to work as many hours as needed to get the job done." I said I wanted to be compensated for as many hours needed to get the job done, which of course, generated a lecture from the development manager, who prior to this had just gotten his MA in English. I didn't give a damn about beer busts, foosball, pinball, pool tables, free TAZO tea and the like. I give a damn about paying my mortgage, saving for retirement, taking a vacation, attending to my family, and being able to look at the outside of my house when the sun is shining. I'm sure I've lost a job or two during the interview stage because of my attitude. But no one says on their deathbed "Gee, I wish I had worked more nights and weekends for that dot-com." Name: BA Email: Date: Tue Apr 24 15:51:00 2001 Comment: Spork is right: At the tech companies where I've worked, much of the "working" for many many hours a day seems to be little more than a pissing contest; each young buck wants a quantitative measure that makes him the biggest martyr for the company. The directors and VPs notice this, on timesheets, in reports from managers, and in the admiring-disbelieving hallway gossip ("Mike pulled an all-nighter *again*!"), and the bucks are drawn closer to the alpha herd. But the guys working 16-hour days are the ones taking time out to play Doom or Halflife, spending an hour walking around greeting people and making sure everyone knows what ungodly hour they went home last night, and taking two hours to settle in and be productive because they're constantly overtired. I recently got together with some friends from my bloated previous company, and they compared notes on their preferred techniques for killing the eight hours a day they need to spend on the premises once they've done the two hours of work they're accountable for. (Yes, I promptly sold all my stock.) I do not want to denigrate those who really do work their asses off for The Man, because I know they're out there, but in my experience (3 tech companies in 5 years) and in that of my friends, many of whom used to be at Microsoft, the issue is discussed all out of proportion to reality. Name: samezone19 Email: Date: Tue Apr 24 14:18:34 2001 Comment: (re Ally McBeal): I think MasterPo makes a good point. Today's shows that presume a seamless, end-to-end work life for their characters are 180 out of phase with the shows of the '60's and '70's that were in some sense "representative" of American life - My Three Sons, The Brady Bunch, and others. Here, most or all of the intereactions occurred at home - the father went of to the office once or twice to be an architect, or some other white-color job, but we'd rarely see him there, and he never brought his problems home. Perhaps Ally McBeal paints as false a picture - i.e. few of us are at work more than 12 hours a day for long stretches, but it's an interesting reversal. Name: MasterPo Email: Date: Tue Apr 24 14:11:11 2001 Comment: One other point - I think the popular media, via the current popular TV shows, glorify long hours and show it as no handicap to "having it all". Consider a show like Alley McBeal. They work all day and still find time to go out to the bar each night for hours of socializing (with their fellow co-workers of course). Yet the next day they show up bright and early at work, never look tired or hung over. Infact, even at night after a day of work the men never seem to need a shave! All their romantic relationships are office-based. Their love interests are clients that walk in or they meet in court. None have any hobbies or outside interests. None take trips or vacations without at least one co-worker going with them. And several characters have openly said they don't want or need love in their lives. It would distract them from their careers. Don't misunderstand me. I'm not one of those who blame all of society's ills on TV! In this case, just pointing out that art and life seem to be feeding off each other. Name: essron Email: Date: Tue Apr 24 14:02:31 2001 Comment: Although i begun working too hard due to the usual nethugger work ethic and belief in my stock options (private company, ABSOLUTELY worthless ALL along) in the end I was just rat racing to keep my job. I have no regret in hindsight because i used the resume padding to get into school while the name of my company was precieved as an asset (I'm not sure if it is anymore!?!) 2 salary renegotiations i was promised were denied. The bonuses and incentives promised to everyone never happened. Same story as everywhere else, and thanks to this site I've trusted NOONE. I've just been laid off, and if it wasn't for being accepted to school and being able to draw unemployment I'd be in a full on panic and forever bitter and jaded. However, this is just to let you know that all the bullshit worked out for at least SOME underpaid microserfs. MBA here I come... good luck. stop working too hard. Name: MasterPo Email: Date: Tue Apr 24 13:53:26 2001 Comment: Most tech companies barely pay COL raises. You work there for the year end bonus (which is often highly political) and the hope of valuable stock options. Name: Matthew Saroff Email: Date: Tue Apr 24 13:47:14 2001 Comment: $60,000/year is about $30/hour. If you work 60/hours a week, it's about $20/hour. When you figure in the lost overtime that you would get if you were a plumber, it's $17.15/hour. Feeling well paid? Name: B Labor Email: Date: Tue Apr 24 13:25:03 2001 Comment: I think the how many hours I worked has replaced the "how many women I've bagged" mantra of past male gangs. We had a lot MORE fun with that.. Name: spork Email: Date: Tue Apr 24 13:13:46 2001 Comment: For what it's worth, these are my observations on the "happy to work 12 hour days" lot, 1. The do tend to be younger. 2. They do not have a whole lot of interests outside of work. 3. They do not, on average, get any more work done than the 8-10 hr./day individuals. 4. They enjoy talking about the number of hours they work. For better or worse, there are a lot of people who have very little going on except for work.